[InterestedQuestioner]

"To me "knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son" is so clear. Those that parse this Scripture reminds me of someone who took great pain to parse the meaning of "is".'

Gscc, what is being claimed here is that the Bible says Joesph engaged in sexual relations with the mother of the Christ. The Bible does not say that. It says that Joesph did not know the mother of Jesus in a Biblical sense prior to the Birth of the Christ. It absolutely does not say that this changed after the birth.


You feel that the word "until" implies sexual relations after birth. Your interpretation of that verse is certainly a reasonable one, but it is not definitive. The verse does not say that Joesph actually had sex with the Mother of God after the Birth of the Christ.

You feel it's implied. I don't. This particular verse, however, does not give us definitive answer. We can not hang an entire doctrine on the word "until." Mary is central to the mystery of Christ because it is through her that God chose to take on His humanity. As the Mother of our Savior, she was elected to play a central role in the Incarnation of Christ. She was the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and she carried God within her for 9 months. God is Himself, in a sense, united with Mary because he chose to take on human nature entirely from Mary's human substance. Moses could not wear his sandals on the ground near the burning bush because it was Holy, the site of a Theophany. Mary is much more Holy, she is not the site of a theophany. She is that through which God enters into Creation, she is that through which God breaks into human history. The Creator of the universe manifests His humility in the person of the virgin Mary. She stands at the center of the entire physical universe, because it is through her that God breaks into history in a defining way. It is through Mary that God becomes enfleshed. The entire History of the universe is divided into a "before' and "after" by the Incarnation of Christ, which God chose to consummated through the person of the Virgin Mary, God's most Holy vessel whom he consecrated as the God bearer. Mary is the handmaid of the Lord. That which God touches is made Holy, and that which is made Holy is set apart.

The view being objected to is the view that the Mother of our Lord was somehow a piece of meat, who was at one moment the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and at another moment engaging in completely unfruitful sexual relations that produced no children. Perhaps this is not the view that you intended, but if you think through the implications of someone having sexual relations with the Spouse of the Holy Spirit from a Scriptural context, you will be led into a position of heresy, my friend. The entire veracity of the Gospel message can be called into question with this one doctrine, that a man had carnal relations with the Mother of Christ. Think the implications of this through as far as you can, and see where they take you. It will not be to a pretty place.

There is much more at stake here than the parsing of an ambiguously used "until." Mary carried Christ within her, and in a sense, Christ carried Mary within him in the humanity of his person.

Taken to it's logical conclusion, the belief that Joeseph had sexual relations with the Mother of our Lord, a belief that you probably consider to be totally innocent and inconsequential to your doctrines of salvation, will lead to blasphemy.

The perpetual virginity of the Mother of the Christ is not a matter of casual indifference to Christianity.

[Full Court]

Mary is much more Holy

She is no more holy than I am.

Luke 8:20  And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.

21  And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Mark 3:33  And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

34  And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

35  For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

[Full Court]

The view being objected to is the view that the Mother of our Lord was somehow a piece of meat, who was at one moment the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and at another moment engaging in completely unfruitful sexual relations that produced no children.

How can a god given sexual relationship between husband and wife turn Mary into a piece of meat?

As much as God chose Mary to bear the child, He also chose Joseph to be her husband.

To smear that relationship by implying that their marital was sinful is pretty low.

By the way, Mary was not married to the Holy Spirit. She was married to Joseph.

[gscc]

God is Himself, in a sense, united with Mary because he chose to take on human nature entirely from Mary's human substance.

It is you that does not understand that the Lord's humanity is not secured through Mary if she is not fully human as ourselves.  That you continuously give her attributes that make her less then the human vessel that God intended her to be is what is not Scriptural.

Moses could not wear his sandals on the ground near the burning bush because it was Holy, the site of a Theophany.

Yet the apostles and the Lord's disciples walked with Him, ate with Him, and learned at His feet.  There is no parity here for the two situations.  The Lord walked among us fully human, yet fully divine.  The humanity through the miracle of His birth, His Divinity through His Sonship with the Father.

The view being objected to is the view that the Mother of our Lord was somehow a piece of meat, who was at one moment the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and at another moment engaging in completely unfruitful sexual relations that produced no children.

I certainly do not believe that the marriage with Joseph was unfruitful.  He took her as his wife.  Sorry you view the marriage condition with such low regard.