Where Have All the Protestants Gone?

NOR ^ | January 2006 | Thomas Storck

[InterestedQuestioner]

"17: that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.'

Equipped for every good work, yes. Intended to be read in complete isolation from the Historical understanding of Christianity handed down from the Apostles as a basis for every individual to determine their own personal doctrines, no.

[Sidebar Moderator]

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[annalex]

Are you brazenly quoting 2 Timothy 3: to support Apostolic Succession?

I am saying that 2 Timothy 3 cannot be properly understood until we read 2 Timothy 1 and 2 Timothy 2. Which is the case with any book, by the way: you read it from the beginning.

The consecration of Timothy is here:

6 For which cause I admonish thee, that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee, by the imposition of my hands.

(2 Timothy 1)

The instruction to pass on the teaching authority to others is here:

2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

(2 Timothy 2)

The specific instruction to ordain certain men is in the previous letter:

1 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher, [...]

8 Deacons in like manner chaste, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre: 9 Holding the mystery of faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved: and so let them minister, having no crime.

(1 Timothy 2)

19 Against a priest receive not an accusation, but under two or three witnesses.

[...]

22 Impose not hands lightly upon any man

(1 Timothy 5)

The fact that not every time a figure of authority is described in the scripture, his consecration is also mentioned, shows nothing. The fact that not every laying of hands describes the sacrament of Holy Orders does not deprecate the context shown above, where it is.

*** My overall advice is not to read the scripture until you can get a good spiritual advisor, Catholic or Orthodox. Without instruction grounded in the tradition of the Church, "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15) your reading is very likely to lead you away from the truth. I will be happy to help you along (I am Catholic) but I am but a layman and my time is limited.

[OLD REGGIE]

OLD REGGIE, you are being cynical. It's a big deal for a Church to not contradict Scripture on a single point.

How about adding to Scripture? You can't contradict Scripture when you invent stuff not discussed in Scripture or taught by the Apostles can you?

[annalex]

God however says it is to make the man of God perfect and "throughly furnished."

No He doesn't. It says that the scripture is "profitable" to make the man of God "perfect, furnished to every good work". He does not say it is alone sufficient, just profitable. Oral instruction is mentioned throughout the letter.

"Throughly" is not there either. God says:

ina artios e o tou theou anthropos pros pan ergon agathon exertismenos (2 Timothy 3:17)

Please find "throughly".

[annalex]

the clear teaching of Scripture that..

1. Mary had sex with Joseph.

There is no scripture to that effect.

[annalex]

Bible says Mary had sex with Joseph

No it doesn't.

[annalex]

To me "knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son" is so clear

Read Greek much?

[OLD REGGIE]

I am refering to a specific event that others seem to disregard.

If Jesus violated some Jewish law then, according to you, He sinned. Or, by chance, are you cherrypicking your examples?

[InterestedQuestioner]

"To me "knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son" is so clear. Those that parse this Scripture reminds me of someone who took great pain to parse the meaning of "is".'

Gscc, what is being claimed here is that the Bible says Joesph engaged in sexual relations with the mother of the Christ. The Bible does not say that. It says that Joesph did not know the mother of Jesus in a Biblical sense prior to the Birth of the Christ. It absolutely does not say that this changed after the birth.


You feel that the word "until" implies sexual relations after birth. Your interpretation of that verse is certainly a reasonable one, but it is not definitive. The verse does not say that Joesph actually had sex with the Mother of God after the Birth of the Christ.

You feel it's implied. I don't. This particular verse, however, does not give us definitive answer. We can not hang an entire doctrine on the word "until." Mary is central to the mystery of Christ because it is through her that God chose to take on His humanity. As the Mother of our Savior, she was elected to play a central role in the Incarnation of Christ. She was the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and she carried God within her for 9 months. God is Himself, in a sense, united with Mary because he chose to take on human nature entirely from Mary's human substance. Moses could not wear his sandals on the ground near the burning bush because it was Holy, the site of a Theophany. Mary is much more Holy, she is not the site of a theophany. She is that through which God enters into Creation, she is that through which God breaks into human history. The Creator of the universe manifests His humility in the person of the virgin Mary. She stands at the center of the entire physical universe, because it is through her that God breaks into history in a defining way. It is through Mary that God becomes enfleshed. The entire History of the universe is divided into a "before' and "after" by the Incarnation of Christ, which God chose to consummated through the person of the Virgin Mary, God's most Holy vessel whom he consecrated as the God bearer. Mary is the handmaid of the Lord. That which God touches is made Holy, and that which is made Holy is set apart.

The view being objected to is the view that the Mother of our Lord was somehow a piece of meat, who was at one moment the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and at another moment engaging in completely unfruitful sexual relations that produced no children. Perhaps this is not the view that you intended, but if you think through the implications of someone having sexual relations with the Spouse of the Holy Spirit from a Scriptural context, you will be led into a position of heresy, my friend. The entire veracity of the Gospel message can be called into question with this one doctrine, that a man had carnal relations with the Mother of Christ. Think the implications of this through as far as you can, and see where they take you. It will not be to a pretty place.

There is much more at stake here than the parsing of an ambiguously used "until." Mary carried Christ within her, and in a sense, Christ carried Mary within him in the humanity of his person.

Taken to it's logical conclusion, the belief that Joeseph had sexual relations with the Mother of our Lord, a belief that you probably consider to be totally innocent and inconsequential to your doctrines of salvation, will lead to blasphemy.

The perpetual virginity of the Mother of the Christ is not a matter of casual indifference to Christianity.

[Full Court]

Me: 1. Mary had sex with Joseph.

You: There is no scripture to that effect.

God:Matthew 1:24  Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25  And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

[Jaded]

Again, it is specific to him giving care of his mother to a non-relative. He would not have done that. Maybe Luther or Zwingli decided otherwise.

[Full Court]

Genesis 38:26  And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.

Judges 19:25  But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

1 Kings 1:4  And the damsel was very fair, and cherished the king, and ministered to him: but the king knew her not.

Matthew 1:25  And knew her not till she had brought forth
her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.


Every time the phrase is used it is talking about sex.

[Full Court]

The Catholic Church (Roman and Orthodox Catholicism) Canonized the Bible under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

False.

[Full Court]

Do you think it's about time for both Full Court and you to stop passing judgement on each other?

1 Corinthians 2:15  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

[OLD REGGIE]

Which translation and in which language? You read Greek? I do.

Too bad there is no copy of the "Bible" which is older than the third or fourth copy. That is, you are far, far away from any original.

[Full Court]

You each state your case from silence and I don't think it will have any bearing on the salvation of either one of you.

The fact that Mary was with the brothers and sisters of Jesus makes more for the case that she was their mother.

We also have the fact that Scripture makes it clear that Mary and Joseph had sex. We also have clear Scripture saying that Jesus was Mary's firstborn.

There is NOTHING to indicate that she she sinned by withholding sex from Joseph or that she was not the mother or those children.

[Full Court]

Again, it is specific to him giving care of his mother to a non-relative. He would not have done that.

based on what Scripture?

We know from the Bible that Mary and Joseph had sex, that Jesus was the firstborn, meaning others were born after, and we know that he had siblings from the bible.

So where in the Bible is it a sin for Jesus to give care of Mary to John?

[Full Court]

Mary is much more Holy

She is no more holy than I am.

Luke 8:20  And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.

21  And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Mark 3:33  And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

34  And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

35  For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

[InterestedQuestioner]

The Catholic Church (Roman and Orthodox Catholicism) Canonized the Bible under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit.