Where Have All the Protestants Gone?

NOR ^ | January 2006 | Thomas Storck

[NYer]

Has anyone noticed the almost complete disappearance of Protestants from our nation? "What!" I can hear my readers exclaim, "Storck has really gone off his rocker this time. Why, just down the street there's an Assembly of God church and two or three Baptist churches and the Methodists and so on. My cousin just left the Catholic Church to become a Protestant and my niece just married one. Moreover, evangelical Protestants have many media outlets of their own and they have great influence in the Bush Administration. They're everywhere." All this, of course, is true. Except that for some time, they no longer call themselves Protestants, but simply Christians, and increasingly they've gotten Catholics to go along with their terminology.

I recall over 10 years ago when I was a lector at Mass, for the prayer of the faithful I was supposed to read a petition that began, "That Catholics and Christians…." Of course, I inserted the word "other" before "Christians," but I doubt very many in the congregation would even have noticed had I not done so. Just the other day I saw on a Catholic website an article about a Protestant adoption agency that refused to place children with Catholic parents. The headline referred not to a Protestant adoption agency but to a Christian one. And how often do we hear of Christian bookstores or Christian radio stations or Christian schools, when everyone should know they are Protestant ones?

Now, what is wrong with this? Well, it should be obvious to any Catholic -- but probably isn't. Are only Protestants Christians? Are we Catholics not Christians, indeed the true Christians? About 30 years ago, Protestants, especially evangelicals, began to drop the term Protestant and call themselves simply Christians as a not too subtle means of suggesting that they are the true and real Christians, rather than simply the children of the breakaway Protestant revolt of the 16th century. This shift in Protestant self-identification has taken on increasingly dramatic proportions. A recent Newsweek survey (Aug. 29-Sept. 5, 2005) found that, between 1990 and 2001, the number of Americans who consider themselves "Christian" (no denomination) increased by 1,120 percent, while the number of those who self-identify as "Protestant" decreased by 270 percent.

But perhaps I am getting too worked up over a small matter. After all, are not Protestants also Christians? Yes, I do not deny that. But usually we call something by its most specific name.

Protestants are theists too, but it would surely sound odd if we were to refer to their radio stations and bookstores as theistic radio stations and theistic bookstores. Language, in order to be useful, must convey human thought and concepts in as exact a way as it can. And, in turn, our thoughts and concepts should reflect reality. As Josef Pieper noted, "if the word becomes corrupted, human existence will not remain unaffected and untainted."

Moreover, words often convey more than simple concepts. A certain word may seem only to portray reality, but in fact it does more. It adds a certain overtone and connotation. Thus, it is not a small matter whether we speak of "gays" or of homosexuals. The former term was chosen specifically to inculcate acceptance of an unnatural and immoral way of life. When I was an Episcopalian, I was careful never to speak of the Catholic Church, but of the Roman Catholic Church, as a means of limiting the universality of her claims. I always called Episcopal ministers priests, again as a means of affirming that such men really were priests, in opposition to Leo XIII's definitive judgment that Anglican orders are invalid and thus that they are in no sense priests. Perhaps because of these early experiences, I am very aware of the uses of language to prejudge and control arguments, and I am equally careful now never to call Episcopal ministers priests or refer to one as Father So-and-So. And I think we should likewise not go along with the evangelical Protestant attempt to usurp the name Christian for themselves. They are Protestants, and public discourse should not be allowed to obscure that fact.

Apparently, though, it is the case that some Protestants call themselves Christians, not out of a desire to usurp the term, but out of an immense ignorance of history. That is, they ignore history to such an extent that they really don't understand that they are Protestants. Knowing or caring little about what came before them, they act as if their nicely bound Bibles had fallen directly from Heaven and anyone could simply become a Christian with no reference to past history, ecclesiology, or theology. The period of time between the conclusion of the New Testament book of Acts and the moment that they themselves "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior" means nothing. Even Luther or Calvin or John Wesley mean little to them, since they can pick up their Bibles and start Christianity over again any time they want. These souls may call themselves simply Christians in good faith, but they are largely ignorant of everything about Church history. They do not understand that Jesus Christ founded a Church, and that He wishes His followers to join themselves to that Church at the same time as they join themselves to Him. In fact, one implies and involves the other, since in Baptism we are incorporated in Christ and made members of His Church at the same time.

So let us not go along with the widespread practice of calling our separated brethren simply Christians. They are Protestants. Let us begin again to use that term. It is precise. It implies Catholic doctrine in the sense that it suggests that such people are in protest against the Church. Moreover, it forces them to define themselves in terms of, rather than independently of, the One True Church. And if we do resume referring to our separated brethren as Protestants, perhaps a few of them might even be surprised enough to ask us why -- and then, behold, a teachable moment!

[Potowmack]

Well the Catholics split from the Orthodox

Oh boy, now you've done it :-)

[NYer]

I ended up becoming a Catholic over the grace displayed when John Paul II died. And the grace displayed by the current occupant of the see.

Welcome Home!

[markomalley]

Then there is no scriptural basis for calling the Antioch Church "Catholic" nor is there a scriptural basis for it being founded by Peter.

I didn't realize that all Church history ended at Acts 28. Silly me.

[x5452]

:))

[kerryusama04]

The impossible to understand part is how the church that preserved the Gospels for all those years would make such obviously erroneous doctrines such as bowing down to idols.

[Campion]

All non-Roman Catholic Trinitarian Christian churches have their roots in the Scriptural principles defended by the Reformers

You're forgetting the various eastern churches not in communion with Rome, all of whom are both "non-Roman Catholic" and "Trinitarian".

[Campion]

The impossible to understand part is how the church that preserved the Gospels for all those years would make such obviously erroneous doctrines such as bowing down to idols.

An idol is an image of a false god. We don't have images of false gods. We do often have images of the True God, Jesus Christ.

[Jaded]

I understanding where you are coming from. I teach 8th Catechism. I've had these kids for 3 years now. I make/encourage my kids to look stuff up themselves.

Things I know I've taught them repeatedly, the next time it comes up I get a vacant stare. I have drilled covenant into their little brains. I'm just not sure it took. Some Sundays, seem like a waste of oxygen for all they seem to get it. So, it's not like some of us aren't trying. And it worries me, alot.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I was referring to Protestants, but you're probably right. I should have mentioned them.

[Potowmack]

I'm new around here- Are Protestants and Catholics always so hostile to each other on this site?

For what it's worth, it seems like Christianity in the world has enough enemies. Re-fighting the 100 years war seems counterproductive.

[Mr. Lucky]

We believe that the Holy Spirit can communicate directly to Christians without the intervention of man.

[x5452]

I think the only thing more hostil that the protestant-catholic arguments on FR are the orthodox-catholic arguments on FR, or possibly arguments involving all three. :)

The ironic thing is how many of these debates were raging even before the Orthodox-Catholic schism.

[Uri’el-2012]

Your claim about Peter and the Popes though is wrong. If you read the entire passage and context of the passage the "ROCK" to which JESUS is referring to is him being the Messiah and that salvation would only be found through faith in him.

In Mark 3:16; and John 1:42 – Jesus renames Simon "Kepha" in Aramaic which literally means "rock." This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because "rock" was not even a name in Jesus' time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person's name, He changes their status.

As to the suggestion that "rock" referred to Christ, you assume words used in Scripture can only have one meaning. This, of course, is not true. For example:

In 1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.

119 posted on 02/15/2006 11:18:57 AM MST by NYer

Matthew. 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church,

One method of Hermeneutical understanding of Matthew 16:18
is to do a word study of all the scriptures which were then known
as the Holy Word of G-d when Y'shua spoke these words.
This will allow one to understand that all of the Holy Word of G-d
was inspired by YHvH

The only conclusion that one can come to unless you are
predisposed to believe in man's tradition over the Holy Word of G-d
is that Y'shua was speaking of himself as the "rock"
e.g.

Genesis 49:24 But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed
[Or archers will attack...will shoot...will remain...will stay] supple,
because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,

Deuteronomy 32:3 I will proclaim the name of the LORD. Oh, praise the greatness of our God!

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are
just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

Deuteronomy 32:15 ..... He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Saviour.

Deuteronomy 32:30 How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten
thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless
the LORD had given them up?

Deuteronomy 32:31 For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede

Deuteronomy 32:32 Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom and from the fields of Gomorrah.
Their grapes are filled with poison, and their clusters with bitterness.

1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no-one holy [Or no Holy One] like the LORD;
there is no-one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:2 He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;

2 Samuel 22:3 my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the
horn [Horn here symbolises strength.] of my salvation.
He is my stronghold, my refuge and my saviour — from violent men you save me.

2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

2 Samuel 22:47 "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Saviour!

2 Samuel 23:3 The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me:
'When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,

Psalm 18:31 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

Psalm 18:46 The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Saviour!

Psalm 19:14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 42:9 I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"

Psalm 78:35 They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.

Psalm 89:26 He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Saviour.'

Psalm 92:15 ..... "YHvH is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."

Psalm 95:1 Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

Psalm 144:1 Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

Habakkuk 1:12 O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy
One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to
execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

b'shem Y'shua

[Potowmack]

The ironic thing is how many of these debates were raging even before the Orthodox-Catholic schism.

Wow, I didn't know they had the internet back then :-)

[NYer]

I keep wondering if the True Faith is tapping at my door; been feeling that way since John Paul II died.

You are not alone. You may want to meet others who, like you, are also wondering.

Coming Home Network

[Jaded]

This is actually pretty calm.

[AlbionGirl]

All non-Roman Catholic Trinitarian Christian churches have their roots in the Scriptural principles defended by the Reformers who bravely reasserted the Biblical truths of Christ and the early church under great peril to life and liberty.

Our local Republican committee may be far removed from the Battle of Saratoga, but it owes its existence to that and other battles of the Revolutionary War.

If more Protestants would read about the Reformation they might better understand their own faith and not shrink from identifying themselves as "Reformed."

Thanks for the ping, Dr. E, and bump for your words and thoughts.

When my parents and I came to the United States we settled in a very Anglo town, hence a Protestant town.

There were/are five Churces in all, only one was Roman Catholic.

We were welcomed by everyone, but it was the Protestant part of the Community that welcomed my family most graciously. From shop owners who would try to help my Mom when shopping for groceries, to her Irish Protestant friend who took me in for 10 days while my Mother remainded at Strong Memorial Hospital to watch over my younger brother, who needed his kidney removed at the age of 2.

She had a daughter that was my age, and I remember the wonderful feeling the morning following my first night there, when I awoke to find the breakfast table set exactly for me as it was for her daughter. When she braided my long hair, it was with the same precision she used for her daughter. Norma, God bless and rest her Soul, had a tough, Irish exterior, but loved me in a way that no extended family (cousins, aunts, etc), here in the U.S., ever did. Her good will was immediate and very sizeable.

Fruits, all around us were good fruits. As, I am no longer Roman Catholic, I'm proud to call myself Protestant, should I be even 1/10th the child of God, that she was, accurses and anathemas, notwithstanding.

[blue-duncan]

"That Saint Peter, before he went to Rome, founded the see of Antioch is attested by many Saints of the earliest times, including Saint Ignatius of Antioch and Saint Clement, Pope."

Luke writes in Acts that the church at Antioch was established by witnesses from the Jerusalem church that were scattered because of the persecution after Stephen was martyred.

Act 11:19 "Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus. And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord."

No where is it mentioned that Peter ever visited Antioch. When Paul and Barnabas were sent out as missionaries from the church at Antioch, Peter is not even mentioned nor is he mentioned when Paul reports back to the Antioch church.

Act 13:1 "Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid [their] hands on them, they sent [them] away. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus."

Looks like the Antioch church was a self governing body, able to send out missionaries and even voluntarily assist the church at Jerusalem.

[Upbeat]

This is a fascinating and mostly constructive discussion. Thank you for the posting. The author seeks to place people in convenient shelves but it is more complicated than he conveys in his article. To draw an analogy lets substitute the word "Yankee" for the word Protestant. For a non-American, the word Yankee means any American. To an American southerner, Yankee means someone from the north. To a northerner, Yankee means someone from New England and to a New Englander it means an individual who can trace their roots to the Mayflower. It all depends upon your perspective. To the Islamic world we are all "Christians" because we come from a Christian culture. For those of us who are Evangelicals it means someone who who has accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, regardless of denomination. I prefer the term Evangelical because I have more in common with my RC brothers in Christ than I have with Unitarians, Jehovahs Witnesses and the Natl Council of Churches crowd(aka the Democratic party at prayer) . I also believe that liberals can get to heaven and I am looking forward to meeting both of them.