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Where Have All the Protestants Gone?
NOR ^ | January 2006 | Thomas Storck

Posted on 02/15/2006 6:22:47 AM PST by NYer

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To: Quester
So you agree that the verse is concerned with establishing Mary's virginity and does not state that the birth is a "turning point" between virginity and non-virginity?

If this is the case, we can agree. You assume that they carried on as a normal average everyday family. We assume differently. But the text itself does not testify one way or another.

SD

1,221 posted on 02/21/2006 2:34:52 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Quester

You're assuming also that there were other brothers and sisters and that is part of your argument against perpetual virginity. If so, why did Jesus defy Jewish law and give over the care of his mother to someone who was NOT his blood brother? Someone who had no legal right to his mother?


1,222 posted on 02/21/2006 2:35:25 PM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Um, no. Unlesssssss.... unless Constantine lived say 250 years. I thought that life spans were significantly reduced in the OT because of sinfulness.

Various Bishops developed lists of inspired books:
Mileto, Bisop of Sardis c 175AD
St. Ireaneus, Bishops of Lyons 185AD
Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea c AD325
Pope Damasus AD 382
Council of Hippo AD393
Council of Carthage AD397
Pope St. Innocent AD405 approved and closed the canon.
1,223 posted on 02/21/2006 2:42:48 PM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
It was canonized by the Constantinian regime. That's good enough for me.

Not really. Why, the RCC version of the Old Testament wasn't canonized for more than a thousand years or so after Constantine.

The Bible, and all the books in it (including many that didn't make the cut) was written hundreds and thousands of years before there was a RCC.

1,224 posted on 02/21/2006 2:43:26 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Jaded

um yes...they didn't settle on the final one until during
the Constantinian regime.


1,225 posted on 02/21/2006 2:44:30 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: OLD REGGIE

70ad in Yavneh for Hebrew scriptures.


1,226 posted on 02/21/2006 2:45:24 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: SoothingDave; Quester
So you agree that the verse is concerned with establishing Mary's virginity and does not state that the birth is a "turning point" between virginity and non-virginity?

Maybe we can all agree that the correct, original, Hebrew word was concerning a "young woman".?????

Do you agree that there is no correspondence between the Old Testament prophesy of "young woman" and the New Testament use of "Virgin"?

1,227 posted on 02/21/2006 2:48:58 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Jaded

Your list should be preceded by stating that God Himself gave the inspiration of the Scriptures to the writers.


1,228 posted on 02/21/2006 3:10:10 PM PST by gscc
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To: SoothingDave

"Can you lose your salvation if you fail to participate in the sacraments on a regular basis?

Without getting into a messy predestination/free will battle, the simple answer is "yes." We all sin, and sacraments like the Eucharist (Communion) give us strength to grow in holiness and sacraments like Confession restore us to grace after serious sin. Since we all sin, keeping ourselves from the sacraments is a sure way of letting your faith and your soul die from starvation, of falling out of grace."
___________________________________

Thanks for the honest answer. I think this is probably one of the most profound differences we have. According to your response in the RCC you view grace as something you can control through your actions. In my faith grace is a free gift from GOD, which is not the result of works. Also, we do not believe we control GOD, but rather we are GOD'S possession.


1,229 posted on 02/21/2006 3:17:59 PM PST by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get out of the Way!)
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To: OLD REGGIE
The Bible, and all the books in it (including many that didn't make the cut) was written hundreds and thousands of years before there was a RCC.

You're getting sidetracked anyway. I wasn't talking about when books were written. I was talking about who got to choose which books made the cut and how Protestants are in agreement with these people. And I'm sure doctrine was strongly considered.

1,230 posted on 02/21/2006 3:30:54 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Jaded
You're assuming also that there were other brothers and sisters and that is part of your argument against perpetual virginity.

Actually, I haven't spoken regarding this point ... today. :^)

If so, why did Jesus defy Jewish law and give over the care of his mother to someone who was NOT his blood brother? Someone who had no legal right to his mother?

Jesus' brothers were not believers at the time of his death.

Would you, as a christian, hand the care of your mother utterly into the hands of non-believers, ... or into the care of a trusted disciple ?

1,231 posted on 02/21/2006 3:56:09 PM PST by Quester
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To: SoothingDave
You assume that they carried on as a normal average everyday family. We assume differently. But the text itself does not testify one way or another.

If you say so ... ;^)

1,232 posted on 02/21/2006 3:58:56 PM PST by Quester
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
On some issues ... I agree with you ... on others, I disagree, ... all probably for reasons which have absolutely nothing to do ... with you.

Well that's fine, I just wanted to offer an opinion that if you can trust those who've handed down doctrines that if preached in your congregation of worship would go over like a porkchop in a synagogue and at the same time totally trust their ability to canonize NT writings that is your perogative.


My point is ... that there is plenty of evidence for the inspiration of the New Testament documents ... which has nothing to do with their ultimate canonization.

1,233 posted on 02/21/2006 4:01:55 PM PST by Quester
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To: wmfights
According to your response in the RCC you view grace as something you can control through your actions.

IMO, more like maintaining grace through obedience. Even scriptures mention those who fall away. Seeds strewn among rocks or weeds. Some roots are shallow and dry up. Some grow and are choked by weeds.

1,234 posted on 02/21/2006 4:15:00 PM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: Jaded

"IMO, more like maintaining grace through obedience."
_______________________________

So in the RCC you could be saved today and if you don't do the right things tomorrow you could be lost. Who determines for you what works are sufficient to maintain your state of grace? What happens to the Catholic that dies while not in compliance with the works necessary to maintain their grace?


1,235 posted on 02/21/2006 4:26:28 PM PST by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get out of the Way!)
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To: NYer

Hmm... interesting, misplaced I think, but interesting... as one whom you could call Catholic or Christian or less accurately a Protestant, I find the author's reasoning a bit off. ...and I don't consider my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters as "separated brethren" even though we may have some serious differences.

jw


1,236 posted on 02/21/2006 4:27:49 PM PST by JWinNC (www.anailinhisplace.net)
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To: Quester
My point is ... that there is plenty of evidence for the inspiration of the New Testament documents ... which has nothing to do with their ultimate canonization.

Agreed. That "alledged" evidence convinces some. I've read the list you're so fond of posting from time to time. :-)

1,237 posted on 02/21/2006 4:39:10 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: OLD REGGIE
"Do you agree that there is no correspondence between the Old Testament prophesy of "young woman" and the New Testament use of "Virgin"?"

All writings have to be read in the context in which they were written. Example:

If Mary were a "young woman" back in that time who had "found favor" with God, that would mean that she lived according to God's teachings at the time and was, without a doubt, a virgin.

Back then, young women living at home with their parents did not consort or associate with men other than their family members; in fact, they often never laid eyes on their husbands-to-be until the day of their wedding.

So, whether one translates it to be "Young woman" or "Virgin," both mean exactly the same thing when read in context.

Secondly, Jesus never taught His followers to repeat 7 Hail Mary's and 5 Our Fathers for forgiveness. He was quite clear on how one would be forgiven: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life, and NONE SHALL COME TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH ME . (Emphasis my own)

Catholic rigamarole is man-made paganism. The Catholic church is a cult which leads to death and damnation, because it teaches people lies about thier path to Salvation.

Many Catholics are saved, believing Christians, but not all. It depends on whether they place their faith in that false church, or in Jesus and His Word.

;-/

1,238 posted on 02/21/2006 4:51:06 PM PST by Gargantua (For those who believe in God, no explanation is needed; for those who do not, no explanation exists.)
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To: Gargantua
Catholic rigamarole is man-made paganism. The Catholic church is a cult which leads to death and damnation, because it teaches people lies about thier path to Salvation.

Many Catholics are saved, believing Christians, but not all. It depends on whether they place their faith in that false church, or in Jesus and His Word.

Zzzzz.....
1,239 posted on 02/21/2006 4:57:34 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Cronos
have you read the Catechism of The Church?

Yes. Often.

1,240 posted on 02/21/2006 4:58:10 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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