Posted on 02/06/2006 10:11:00 AM PST by AnalogReigns
"Anybody else miss ol' biblewonk?"
I do. Why did he get banned?
"Why did then THE most agressive atheistic ideology, namely Communism, find its most fertile soil...and fearful results in the lands of the Eastern Church? Just asking, not being argumentative, and have yet to read your suggested site."
I don't take your question as argumentative...but to respond, please don't take my answer to be so either.
The same question, the Jews standing beneith our suffering Lord ask, "If you are truly the Christ, come down from the cross and we will believe?"
25 million Orthodox died in Russia for their faith during the period of time you state. If you think the Jewish Holocaust was bad, multiply that by 5.
Don't mistake, as did those mocking Christ 2000 years ago, the pursecution of His body for weakness. To the world this is a true mystery. More faithful Christians have died in the last century alone than in all the previous centuries combined since 33 AD.
But many walked away in 33 AD convienced Jesus could not have been the Christ. Many walk in the world today for the same reason...His death was weakness...His followers deaths are weakness.
I would argue that where the body of Christ is most greatly pursecuted, there you will find Christ Himself. To those that think the world has change, or that evil pursecutes Christ less in todays world...I would say that evil has won you over.
Until all the elect are identified (which will not be until Christ returns), the world will still not recognize Christ (since bad things shouldn't happen to good people...right).
All I know is some people around here regularly accused him of "bashing" Roman Catholicism. Others (maybe the same people?) insisted he's a racist (he's not).
It's a shame he's not tolerated here, though. Few people know the Bible better than biblewonk. He wasn't afraid to call it like he saw it.
Oh, and whatever his alleged infraction(s), he's not welcome to come back. Bummer.
""Why did then THE most aggressive atheistic ideology, namely Communism, find its most fertile soil...and fearful results in the lands of the Eastern Church?"
O, and I must add this too...
If you read the "River of Fire" that I recommended you'll find that the path away from true orthodox teaching (at least theologically) is first through the deception of Sola Scriptura, ex cathedra, and prideful ego (to which Rome submitted and fully realized by 1054).
Based on this great error, it was only a matter of time before the individual man would ask the same question (especially in light of the errors of Rome)...if he can do it why not me?
But then it comes full circle...
Now man separated from the true Body of Christ and following his own was is worse off then in the beginning. He resents the beginning, frustrated by the failures of his ways, the continuing disillusionment of fragmentation, disunity, numerous exclusive interpretations of the same scripture...he begins to believe there is no God, no unity, no truth, and the one holy catholic and apostolic church is just one of 25,000 others. That all are enslaved by a belief that there is a God...finally persecuting that which he lost by pride.
Why was Russia so persecuted; because Judas is still alive in the world (figurative for those literalist reading this). Ultimately so discouraged, that persecution is the only means to satisfy a profound emptiness.
Again, don’t mistake that fact that Judas can exist in the presence of Christ as a sign that both are from the same tree.
"I would argue that where the body of Christ is most greatly pursecuted, there you will find Christ Himself. "
Then He is in China.
"Until all the elect are identified (which will not be until Christ returns), "
Are you Orthodox?
"Ultimately so discouraged, that persecution is the only means to satisfy a profound emptiness."
Now there is a truly new concept to me. Very interesting.
All the quotes you posted indicate is that the bishop has the primary jurisdiction and that the bishops, heirs of the Apostles, are equal in honor. The Church agrees. (We need to see the context before we can understand what the "universal priest" is supposed to mean; on the face of it, it does not apply to the pope since the Eucharist consecrated by the pope has no qualities or essence distinct from the Eucharist consecrated by any other priest).
To see a reasonable criticism of the post-1054 papacy, as well as informed reading of the fathers, one needs to go the an Orthodox source. But then, of course, one would have to remember that the modern papacy developed, very unfortunately, in near isolation from the Eastern bishops and served primarily the needs of the West.
As to the question where the Reform movement stands today, I applaud your interest in finding that out. Let us know when your are done.
In the spirit of scholarly discussion.
I will confess to being a bit confused as to the structure of the article, the beginning does not link to the end...any from a reformed perspective....assuming "Sola Scriptura" why should the average reformed individual really care what the early fathers had to say as it is not contained in the Cannon of scripture?
It would have been better (and less liable to rile folks) had it focused exclusively on "Sola Gratia" and the statistics on the reformed movement that it supplies.
Just an observation.....
the an Orthodox -> to an Orthodox
" 'I would argue that where the body of Christ is most greatly persecuted, there you will find Christ Himself. ' Then He is in China. 'Until all the elect are identified (which will not be until Christ returns), ' Are you Orthodox?"
Christ is God and is therefore in all places and fills all things. So the question, "Is Christ in China" can be answered by asking a similarly difficult question "Is Christ in Hell?"
An Orthodox would answer both "Yes".
Like a deep depression is a state of mind, Hell is a state of soul in the presence of Grace (not hard to see in the world today when people truly hate God who has only done wonderful things for them). The depth of sin however is far more reaching than death…for Christ raised faithful Lazarus from death (in concert with Lazarus’s will), but not the unfaithful Judas from willful sin (which is against…not Christ’s will, but against Judas’s will).
Hell is a place where Christ continues to knock on the door of the soul but it will never open. Lazarus opened the door, Judas will not…but Christ will eternally continue to reach out to both.
Where is the Church and who is saved? (Your questions just asked a bit more bluntly since it seems to be a residual question that lingers from Protestant-Roman Catholic confrontations)...Orthodox would answer "We know where the Church (and it’s fullness) is, but not where it is not". There are many Orthodox that will not be saved (as there were disciples unsaved...Judas...even though the fullness of the Truth was contained in Christ). There will be many non-Orthodox saved, who hear the voice of God, and respond in Truth (yet I would argue not to read to much into this, or to base your salvation on it, since Truth will be recognized by the faithful when it is presented...such as the thief on the cross).
Am I Orthodox (which literally means “right” worship) I would answer…I hope so.
Yes and no. I know Cyprian is very popular in Orthodox apologetics, so you could suggest that it is a defense of Orthodox Ecclesiology, but there are one or two things further down that are incompatible with the Orthodox Faith
(I will confess to never seeing any scholarly articles on the concept of Grace within the Eastern traditions though)
Also if you notice the footnote on Cyprian's use of the title "Pope" you'll find it vague. If I recall correctly he was Bishop of Alexandria which used that title...so I have some questions as to the authors historical knowledge.
"...why should the average reformed individual really care what the early fathers had to say as it is not contained in the Cannon of scripture? "
Well, maybe one arguement would be that it was the Fathers of the Church that "were lead by the Holy Spirit" to both write and define what the Cannon of Scripture was.
It is a pretty weak argument to assume that you are lead by the Holy Spirit when in the same breath you'd expect that because the Law was written by Moses and replaced by Christ, Moses should not have been standing on the same hill with Christ during the Transfiguration.
I would argue that the Church Fathers will be standing in Christ's glory far before any of us. And it might be a good idea before throwing out the baby with the bathwater that you really understand the theological significance of what you're throwing out. It was the Orthodox Church Fathers that gave you the scripture you hold in your hands today. It was the Orthodox Church Fathers that gave their lives for what you take for granted.
Here is an arguement that you'll not find the Roman Catholic Church using often:
If the Pope (Bishop) of Rome is infallible, then Pope Leo the Great's tome concerning infallibility must be infallible. Yet it was an arguement against infallibility.
It's like trying to reconcile error with error. It does not work.
Very little, and often nothing, of what any pope speaks or writes is infallible. To be infallible a statement must be made in consensus of all the bishops who are in communion with Rome on matters of faith and morals and it should make clear that the pope intends it to come from the Chair of Peter and not from him as a private theologian. I don't know enough to say the Leo the Great's book is infallible, and I don't know enough to say that it contradicts the doctrine of infallibility rightly understood; do you?
"It's like trying to reconcile error with error. It does not work."
Please, let's not start confusing ourselves with the facts.
:)
You kind of lost me with this post...not sure I understand what you are trying to say.
While not really germaine to my comments...the document which you refer to is not an "ex-Cathedra" statement and therefore doesn't pertain to the infallibility issue.
I'm really very confused as to why you threw that out there......
"Very little, and often nothing, of what any pope speaks or writes is infallible."
Quantity has very little to do with it. Filioque, although inserted many years before the more refined doctrines of infallibility, was none the less inserted into the Nicene Creed (itself well defined statements of the entire body of Christ...including the Roman Bishop) with the spirit of infallibility. Theologians could argue that it was this prideful spirit which innovated this insertion into Christ words that ultimately necessitated the need to claim Papal infallibility.
Mechanics of infallibility are equally meaningless. St Peter, when siding with the Circumcision, was rebuked by St Paul (see Gal 2:11-16). And yet, even a millennium after the erroneous Filioque entry, which Rome ultimately had to justify with infallibility, which Rome realized later was not in the original language used by any of the Gospels, has yet to repent and set the record straight.
The point is, you cannot use the vast cumulative output of the popes to look for statements that infallibly deny infallibility, as you attempted.
I do not think the dual procession of the Holy Ghost has been defined infallibly. Further movement on this doctrine is possible, and, given some intriguing passages in the recent Deus Caritas Est, likely.
The struggle between the Ultramontanists (those who believe in papal supremacy) and the decentralists (those who do not) is as old as the Church itself.
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