Posted on 02/06/2006 10:11:00 AM PST by AnalogReigns
Please, let everyone be charitable...NO NAME CALLING!!!
"There'll be a hot time in the old town Tonight..."
"Define "Good"."
Define "Define".
Define "Clinton".
Actually that's a good question...and probably one reason for the survey results.
Since every person is made in God's image we all have some "good" in us. However, since every person (past, present, & future) except Jesus Christ, is poluted by an inborn fallen sin-nature....being descendent of Adam, no one is purely good, which, by older definitions is the only kind of moral good...totally pure. Evil is the pollution of good...hence by that definition anything evil is partly (or even basically) good...however also BASICALLY polluted (and therefore evil) in every capacity...even in the ability to reason, desire and choose.
I think a lot of Christians if they understood that, would agree that everyone is basically a sinner....still with some "good" in us, but only in a relative sense. No one, save Christ, is purely and basically Good, in that sense.
This is a basic Augustinian understanding of the nature of good and evil.
It's threads like this one that remind me how much fun we used to have before biblewonk was banned.
Anybody else miss ol' biblewonk?
ping
(from the same webpage as "What Can Protestants Expect from the New Pope" posted earlier by Gamecock)
Biblewonk was banned? I must have missed that thread.
I must have, too - and yes, Biblewonk is missed!
ping
fyi
I'm curious as to Eastern Orthodox opinions of the Western Church's Reformers. I realize y'all are NOT fans of St. Augustine....on which much of the original Protestant theology was built on. (not even regarded with the title "Saint" is he? Can't say I've ever understood that attitude toward St. Augustine of the EO theologians.)
"I'm curious as to Eastern Orthodox opinions of the Western Church's Reformers. I realize y'all are NOT fans of St. Augustine...."
Please read "The River of Fire" by Alexandre Kalomiros for a great introduction to your question. It's short, 20 pages, and available on line at http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm .
The first 5 pages will pretty much cover the significant problems we have with St Augustine writings and the long term effect they've had to western theology, the eventual creation of the great schism, the Protestant fragmentation which was destined to follow, and ultimately the agressive Atheism we see in the world.
Another instance of development of doctrine, and essential to the understanding of this paper, is that of Papal supremacy. Newman tells us that the early Christians knew that they must live in unity, and recognized that they were so living. It was a sacramentum unitatis. The determination of its essence and means of securing this unity was to be supplied as necessity grew. While Christians were of one heart and one soul, it would be suspended; when unity was threatened, it was invoked. Newman says:
When the Church was thrown upon her own resources, first local disturbances gave exercise to bishops, and next ecumenical disturbances gave exercise to Popes; and whether communion with the Pope was necessary for Catholicity would not and could not be debated till a suspension of that communion had actually occurred.
With marked clarity Newman reasoned that, "if the whole of Christendom is to form one Kingdom, one head is essential; at least this is the experience of eighteen hundred years." And so:
As the Church grew into form, so did the power of the Pope develop; and wherever the Pope has been renounced, decay and division have been the consequence. We know of no other way of preserving the Sacramentum Unitatis but a centre of unity.
It was quite obvious to Newman that, even though the full deposit of faith had been given to the Apostles by Christ, and transmitted by them to the Church, there was a need of correctly understanding this deposit as conflicting opinions arose among the members of the one Church. To this end, a supreme authority was needed; otherwise, the body of Revelation would be open to endless confusion; and decay, not unity, would be the mark of the Church. This could not be since Christ had not only commanded his disciples to teach "all things that He had commanded," but also had assured them that he would be with them until the end of time (Matt. 28:18).
Newman saw that the Divine Author had intended Christianity to have "a wide expansion of the ideas proper to it"; but realized that this great benefit could be hindered by "the evil birth of cognate errors which acted as its counterfeit." He, therefore, assigned certain characteristics of faithful developments, which would discriminate them from corruptions. He defined corruption as "an incipient disorganization." It is characteristic of modern sects and of dissident theologians within the Church that they give evidence of corruption through the excesses in their conduct and the errors in their doctrine. The Church has been harassed by their innovations, but has ever revived from the force of their attacks. She is ever herself; "doctrine is where it was, and usage, and precedence, and principle, and policy." In a word, she is "incorrigible," cannot change the deposit of faith that has been given her by our Divine Savior.
As we have seen, Newman came to the overwhelming realization that the Catholic faith was logically, as well as historically, the representative of the ancient faith. As a result of his studies, he assigned certain characteristics of faithful development, as distinct from corruptions. He set down seven Notes to discriminate healthy developments of an idea from its decay: (1) a one and same type of life, that is, a religion which, while developing, remains identically what it was; (2) continuity of principles, the "special laws" of a development; (3) a power of assimilation, achieving a "unitive" incorporation into the life of the faith; (4) a logical sequence, that is, a teaching that issues from its original teaching; (5) an early anticipation of future development; (6) a conserving of the course of antecedent developments, an addition which illustrates and corroborates the thought which precedes; and (7) a chronic vigor, marked by duration. These seven Notes— marks of fidelity in the development of an idea—are to be applied to the current developments of Christian doctrine. And here Newman advises us to watch for "the unity and identity of the idea with itself through all stages of its development."
Shalom!
Augustine had it wrong. He even mistranslated parts of the original fall. The Eastern Orthodox Church has many fundamental differences with his understanding.
Many Eastern Orthodox Theologians believe that Augustines writings play a significant role in the eventual demise of the West, including the necessity for Papal Infallibility, the Protestant fragmentation, and, played to its eventual end, agressive Atheism (since the rational mind confronted with conflicting mistruth will falsely accept one, the other, or reject them both).
See http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm for a very good, yet short explaination of this problematic paradigm between EO and Western Theology.
Not by nature...as our first father before his choice to disobey, was innocent, but by descent--everyone has inheritied the trait...(almost like a mutation...)---the doctrine of orginal sin is quite a mystery--but vital to a right understanding of the gospel of the "new Adam" Jesus Christ.
Why did then THE most agressive atheistic ideology, namely Communism, find its most fertile soil...and fearful results in the lands of the Eastern Church?
Just asking, not being argumentative, and have yet to read your suggested site.
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