Here's your dour-friendly/seeker unfriendly church:
Posted on 01/10/2006 10:06:56 AM PST by Terriergal
That's the difference between a seeker friendly church and a dour friendly church.
Post 270
Post 420
it's not "just" a verse, it's an entire theme. 1 Peter, 1 & 2 Corinthians, 1 & 2 Timothy ought to be enough to get you started on the need for order, structure, holiness and reverence whithin the church body, church building, and all manner of fellowship in the Lord's name.
I will, however, repeat my still unanswered question regarding the surveys, as originally posted in #344. The question that all of you have artfully dodged:
"If you were to ask the congregants of such a church why they go to that particular church, what do you think the responses would look like?
Probably something like:
"I get to wear jeans"
"I like the music"
"I can drink a soda during the service"
"I can act casual"
"The sermons aren't long and preachy"
"No boring hymns"
All translate into fleshly needs, and I am not simply assuming. These were the responses received by our former pastor when he implemented the PDC model at our old church. He then sought to change the service to accommodate.
The very first step in Rick Warren's plan is to conduct a survey and find out why people in an area don't like church, then make the necessary changes to suit them. To make church more attractive to them. Correct?
The motive for the church-goer at that point becomes their personal comfort and ease, not a desire to worship their creator with awe and reverence. You've now set the standard for their future attendance, and the moment they become uncomfortable, they'll be the first ones to leave.
You've now made worship conditional, basd upon their desires and comfort. It becomes "If I can't wear jeans, then I won't go." If ___, then ___. Conditional worship.
What you win them with is what you win them to."
Please feel fre to re-read as needed, and answer when convenient.
Seeker-sensitivity breeds conditional worship and spiritual laziness.
Yes, if you really read what I said, there IS bait and switch. And yes, we are supposed to love one another and explain God's love - for that is PART of the gospel. But that isn't what I showed to be the bait and switch part.
A church is to practice the love of Christ and to preach the gospel of Christ.
Exactly. The gospel of Christ is about His love saving the poor, wretched sinners who are lost. If a church service does not explain what it means to be lost to God - to be unable to be in His presence, to understand how evil our sin is, then they really cannot grasp His love - for they will see the love of God in man's eyes, not God's. There is no reason to really and truly repent. On the other hand, it is also wrong to preach fire and brimstone without speaking of His love. Both are wrong.
What is bait and switch would be anyplace where they proclaim themselves Christian, and a person arrives who is NOT greeted, who is NOT made to feel welcome, who is NOT introduced to the gospel in every conceivable manner at the church's disposition.
I don't disagree - but that was not the point. Although introducing the gospel in EVERY conceivable manner would just about require reading through the entire bible to them, for it is the ultimate presentation of the gospel in every conceivable manner for it is pure and complete. :) But it is also a bait and switch for those who call themselves Christian and don't explain what being saved FROM is as part of the salvation message.
As Marlowe says, there are some pretty "dour" places out there.....grim people, grim relating, grim outlook, grim proclamation, and grim grimmaces.
So? What does that have to do with what I have said. Again I will say that it is bait and switch if only part of the gospel is presented if they lure someone to church saying they proclaim all of it. It works both ways.
But my original point, never addressed, is that the church building is not where evangelism is supposed to be centered - it is for worship of believers (and if non-believers are there, then they may be convinced by our worship). Each believer is to be always lifting up the name of Christ Jesus to those both saved and unsaved so that His word and His truth will be heard. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those who bring good tidings. It is not "beautiful upon the mountains are the the feet of those who drag others into the temple/tabernacle". And by promoting such seeker services where people will be comfortable has an effect on the individual believer to not evangelize the gospel, but to just "evangelize" the church service. And that is very very wrong.
Somewhere you just don't seem to be getting what I am saying.
Here's your dour-friendly/seeker unfriendly church:
But you don't seem to be seeking what he is saying at all. ;)
I don't suppose you have a scripture verse that says that the church building should not be used for evangelical purposes?
So? That has nothing to do with what we are saying. I could put up a picture of a straw man here. A non-seeker sensitive church does not equal unloving or dour. Sigh...
You are trying to say that if A does NOT = B, then B = C or A = C and that is poor reasoning -- math and otherwise. :)
That's simply inaccurate, biblically.
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together, and all are speaking in other languages, and people who are uninformed or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds? 24 But if all are prophesying, and some unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all and is judged by all. 25 The secrets of his heart will be revealed, and as a result he will fall down on his face and worship God, proclaiming, "God is really among you."
This verse by the Apostle Paul CLEARLY endorses doing evangelism in church.
I challenge you to show even ONE New Testament verse with the theme: "Thou shalt not evanglize in church."
That's simply inaccurate, biblically.
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together, and all are speaking in other languages, and people who are uninformed or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds? 24 But if all are prophesying, and some unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all and is judged by all. 25 The secrets of his heart will be revealed, and as a result he will fall down on his face and worship God, proclaiming, "God is really among you."
This verse by the Apostle Paul CLEARLY endorses doing evangelism in church.
I challenge you to show even ONE New Testament verse with the theme: "Thou shalt not evanglize in church."
My answer of a moment ago applies here just as well: So? That has nothing to do with what we are saying. I could put up a picture of a straw man here. A non-seeker sensitive church does not equal unloving or dour. Sigh...
You are trying to say that if A does NOT = B, then B = C or A = C and that is poor reasoning -- math and otherwise. :) The key word is centered. For crying out loud, of course evangelism happens in the building. But we as individual are to be centered on Christ Jesus and when we are, then His love and His gospel will flow out of us like Living Water. We went down this same road earlier that you never addressed. When you do, then perhaps we can continue, but I don't see any Godly reason to do that again until that happens.
In the meantime, I pray that all will come more and more to a better knowledge of Christ Jesus our Lord in their lives - yielding their will unto His.
Can't you just say no?
This verse by the Apostle Paul CLEARLY endorses doing evangelism in church. I challenge you to show even ONE New Testament verse with the theme: "Thou shalt not evanglize in church."
My answer of a moment ago applies here just as well: So? That has nothing to do with what we are saying. I could put up a picture of a straw man here. A non-seeker sensitive church does not equal unloving or dour. Sigh...
You are trying to say that if A does NOT = B, then B = C or A = C and that is poor reasoning -- math and otherwise. :) The key word is centered. Nowhere did anyone say that evangelism does NOT take place in a building! For crying out loud, of course evangelism happens in the building. (insert straw man picture / )
But we as individual are to be centered on Christ Jesus and when we are, then His love and His gospel will flow out of us like Living Water. We went down this same road earlier that you never addressed. When you do, then perhaps we can continue, but I don't see any Godly reason to do that again until that happens.
In the meantime, I pray that all will come more and more to a better knowledge of Christ Jesus our Lord in their lives - yielding their will unto His.
Can't you just say no?
No. ;)
On what authority do you assert that active evangelism ought not to take place on church property or in a church building?
Marlowe, you're in no position to be demanding answers from people when you still haven't answered the question pointed to you yesterday evening. Secondly, even when you're shown the answer, you still ignore it because it's not the answer you're looking for.
You dance around the main topic, while taking one point from an entire list, and attempting to start a new argument from that, without answering to the original.
It's downright annoying, not to mention dishonest and somewhat rude.
So?....straw man
Sorry, Lupie, but that is irrational. The verse directly addresses the issue you raised.
You are wrong, biblically, and should stop holding to the opinion that evangelism in church is inappropriate.
I'm sorry. Which question was that?
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