The purpose-driven pastor (Rick Warren calls Christian fundamentalists an enemy)

LAKE FOREST, Calif. - This week, it was the Rose Bowl players' breakfast. This month, it will be the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Then the President's prayer breakfast in Washington, followed by an entertainment industry conference in Los Angeles.

Rick Warren, the Southern Baptist preacher's son from tiny Redwood Valley, Calif., is much in demand these days.

The founding pastor of the Saddleback mega-church south of Los Angeles and the author of the best-selling The Purpose Driven Life, Warren is perhaps the most influential evangelical Christian in America.

With his book - the best-selling hardback nonfiction book in the nation - and Purpose-Driven Life videos and 40-day Bible study plans, Warren has created an unparalleled international network of millions of individuals and 400,000 churches, spanning faiths and denominations.

Now he wants to use his growing influence - and wealth - for an ambitious global attack on poverty, AIDS, illiteracy and disease.

"The New Testament says the church is the body of Christ, but for the last 100 years, the hands and feet have been amputated, and the church has just been a mouth. And mostly, it's been known for what it's against," Warren said during a break between services at his sprawling Orange County church campus.

Fresh from preaching to 38,000 congregants during Christmas week services, Warren was looking to the future by invoking the past.

"One of my goals is to take evangelicals back a century, to the 19th century," said Warren, 51, shifting painfully in his chair because of a back sprain suffered during an all-terrain-vehicle romp with his 20-year-old son, Matthew. "That was a time of muscular Christianity that cared about every aspect of life."

Not just personal salvation, but social action. Abolishing slavery. Ending child labor. Winning the right for women to vote.

It's time for modern evangelicals to trade words for deeds and get similarly involved, Warren contends.

At the end of his second sermon last Sunday, he reminded his largely affluent Orange County audience: "Life is not about having more and getting more. It's about serving God and serving others."

That, simply put, is his message. Give your life to God, help others, spread the word. It is the same message that Christians have been preaching for 2,000 years. Warren has updated the language, added catchphrases and five-step guides, but he readily admits "there is not a new idea in that book."

The Purpose Driven Life has sold more than 24 million English-language copies since 2002, with millions more in other languages. It has been popular with Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, with pastors and priests using it as a Bible-study handbook.

The book figured prominently in a hostage drama in Georgia last March. Ashley Smith, held by alleged Atlanta courthouse killer Brian Nichols, said he released her after she gave him methamphetamine and read to him from the book.

Warren "is able to cast the Christian story so people can hear it in fresh ways," said Donald E. Miller, director of the Center for Religion and Civic Culture at the University of Southern California. He is "a very important figure in evangelical Christianity," part of a "trend we'll see more of," Miller said, citing Warren's independence, social activism, informality and ability to reach across racial and national lines.

"The Gen X-ers are sick and tired of flash and hype and marketing," Miller said. "The soft sell of a Rick Warren is far more attractive to them than a highly stylized TV presentation of the Christian message."

Among evangelicals, Warren is more influential than better-known and more-divisive figures such as religious broadcasters Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell or radio psychologist James Dobson, and is often seen as the heir to the Rev. Billy Graham as "America's pastor."

Scott L. Thumma, a professor of the sociology of religion at Hartford Seminary and the author of a forthcoming book on mega-churches, said polls of church leaders often put Warren in first or second place among most-influential evangelical leaders.

"And one of the interesting things is that he crosses boundaries... . He's not just respected by the evangelical world but by many outside that world," Thumma said.

In North Philadelphia, the Rev. Herbert Lusk, the former Philadelphia Eagles running back who is pastor of the Greater Exodus Baptist Church and a prominent supporter of President Bush, brought Warren to town in November to raise money for aid to Africa. Lusk also tutored many of the Eagles' players and coaches in the Purpose-Driven Life program last year.

Lusk said Warren "took the principles that we preach about every Sunday and packaged them in a way that are palatable for Christians and non-Christians."

"The guy is a preacher's preacher... . He's the leading evangelical in the world, unquestionably," Lusk said.

Broadly defined, evangelicals are Christians who have had a personal or "born-again" religious conversion, believe the Bible is the word of God, and believe in spreading their faith. (The term comes from Greek; to "evangelize" means to preach the gospel.) The term is typically applied to Protestants.

Millions of Americans fit the definition, although estimates vary on exactly how many. Forty-two percent of Americans described themselves as evangelical Christians in a Gallup poll in April, while 22 percent said they met all three measures in a Gallup survey in May. The National Association of Evangelicals says about 25 percent of adult Americans are evangelicals.

Evangelicals are often equated with fundamentalists or the religious right, which annoys Warren. Although he's politically conservative - opposing abortion and gay marriage and supporting the death penalty - he pushes a much broader agenda and disdains both politics and fundamentalism.

Warren is a friend of President Bush and a repeat visitor to the White House. But he also met for several hours at Saddleback last month with Sen. John Kerry, the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee, to discuss issues such as poverty and the environment.

"I'm worried that evangelicals be identified too much with one party or the other. When that happens, you lose your prophetic role of speaking truth to power," Warren said. "And you have to defend stupid things that leaders do."

"Politics is always downstream from culture. I place less confidence in it than a lot of folks. I don't think that's the answer... . Politics is not the right tool to change the culture."

With his goatee and penchant for Hawaiian shirts and colloquial language, Warren embodies a laid-back approach to worship that resonates with Americans who have little allegiance to formal denominations or rituals.

His 120-acre hilltop campus, with palm trees, waterfall and meandering brook, is a kind of religious theme park, where worshipers meet in different buildings to suit their musical preferences, while watching simultaneous video feeds of Warren preaching at the main worship center.

Warren's father and grandfather and great-grandfather were all preachers. He followed their path by starting Saddleback in 1980 with his wife, Kay, and a congregation of seven. His ministry prospered in booming Orange County, as Warren went door-to-door, asking residents what they'd like in a church. For 15 years, he and his growing flock were nomads, meeting in schools, homes and other buildings. Construction started on the current campus in 1995, and Warren now has 80,000 names on Saddleback's rolls. Saddleback is a a Southern Baptist church, but it doesn't advertise the fact.

As the money has rolled in from his book, Warren said he has given most of the millions to the church and the three social-service foundations he has established. He stopped taking his $110,000 annual salary and repaid the church for his 25 years of salary since its founding. He and his wife became "reverse tithers," he said, keeping 10 percent of their income and giving away the rest, including $13 million in 2004.

This month, he is leading a trip to Rwanda, to train pastors and distribute medicine and money to battle AIDS and other diseases. It's part of what he calls his global PEACE plan (Plant a church, Equip leaders, Assist the poor, Care for the sick, Educate the next generation).

Last month, he launched the first major evangelical effort to battle AIDS, convening a three-day conference at Saddleback to mobilize American Christians to help AIDS victims and raise money to fight the disease. Part of the battle for Warren is overcoming resistance from evangelicals who view AIDS as strictly a gay disease or even as divine retribution for immoral behavior.

Warren said he sees religious institutions as more powerful forces than governments for solving the world's problems.

"I would trust any imam or priest or rabbi to know what is going on in a community before I would any government agency."

But, powerful as churches can be in working for the powerless, they can't succeed without governments and nongovernmental organizations, Warren said.

Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be "one of the big enemies of the 21st century."

"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other."

And thank you. Most people just gloss right over the main point for other arguements. We are all supposed to be individual fishers. The Word does not say send out the big fishing boats, but send out fishers. It does not say that we are to go and gather all the fish and put them in a big pond where they can be entertained to death of self, but to each go and gather by preaching the Word. Big difference.

You didn't answer my questions, Counselor - you changed the subject.

I'm not talking about what happened then, I'm talking about what's happening now. Is it true, or is it untrue that one of the first steps in Rick Warren's PDC process is to conduct a survey to find out what is keeping people from going to church?

"Felt needs" is another way of saying "fleshly desires", and if you're winning them into the church by meeting those desires, then you're winning them TO a christian life which incorporates those desires instead of mortifying them.

What happens when the music stops entertaining them? When they get used to the coffee? When they've bought all the guides and books the store has to carry? When the snappy t-shirts don't fit? When they 'come down' off of the "experience"? Such a reliance on worldly things leads to a shallow understanding of faith, and is quickly dissipated. See the parable of the seeds as an example.

The reprobate have only one, true 'felt need'. The need to avoid eternal damnation by clinging to Christ. Everything else is fluff.

>>But we can offer them a smile and a cup of coffee and a promise that the experience may just change their lives.<<

Who are you to promise that? Such an approach is a far cry from Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost. No coffee, warm smiles, or "luring" there - just the straight-up, undilluted Gospel truth.

The very fact that you call worship an "experience" says a lot about the showmanship that goes behind it. Like it's some sort of circus act or Pink Floyd Lazer Show. Calling it an "experience" automatically shows that it's designed for the person, not God. Worship then becomes focused on what the individual can get from it, rather than it's true intent - which is to give God what He is due.

And that, my friend, is misguided and man-centered.

I don't see the deep theology in the second song you posted. God and I are not "buddies". He is my God, my Creator and Sustainer, the LORD of the whole Universe, my Savior and Light.

Tim is my friend, Shaun is my friend, Susan is my friend. I am God's child, and all I have, even my very next breath is dependent upon Him and His good will and pleasure.

Your song there seems to cheapen the relationship, and bring God down to a "chummy" level. It just can't compare to something like "A Mighty Fortress is our God", or "Man of Sorrows".

I just don't see Hebrews 12:28&29 applying to that song:

"Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire."

By the by, I never much cared for "In the Garden" either.

"Felt needs" is another way of saying "fleshly desires", and if you're winning them into the church by meeting those desires, then you're winning them TO a christian life which incorporates those desires instead of mortifying them.

No. If you are GETTING THEM INTO CHURCH, then you are doing what Paul said is sometimes necessary to win them to Christ. To the weak he became weak. These people are weak. They need a reason to get up on Sunday and go into Church. So you make the experience somewhat comfortable and once they are in there you bombard them with the Word of Truth.

Now I disagree with Warren's non-confrontive sermon style, but that is his style. But if we don't get these people to a place where they can hear the word of God, then we are not doing our job as a Church.

What happens when the music stops entertaining them? When they get used to the coffee? When they've bought all the guides and books the store has to carry? When the snappy t-shirts don't fit? When they 'come down' off of the "experience"? Such a reliance on worldly things leads to a shallow understanding of faith, and is quickly dissipated. See the parable of the seeds as an example.

And who is harmed if the goats are entertained? Isn't it much more important that the sheep be brought into the flock than that the goats be kept away? It seems to me that some people here think they can't properly worship God if there is a marginal Christian or a non-Christian sitting next to them obsverving the process. Maybe God put that marginal Christian or non-Christian in the pew next to you for a reason. Aren't you the guys who say that everything happens for a purpose? Maybe that was a bad word to use on you, eh?

I don't see the deep theology in the second song you posted. God and I are not "buddies". He is my God, my Creator and Sustainer, the LORD of the whole Universe, my Savior and Light.

Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Is God YOUR friend, friend?

>>I am concerned when people here use the term "unbiblical methods".<<

You should be more concerned for the churches that implement them.

>>don't understand what one means by "watered down".<<

Not giving the full message of the gospel. Not saying a word about sin and its' vileness for fear of offending the newcomers. Only preaching about the benefits of salvation, not WHY it's necessary. Preaching fluff instead of meat.

>>and quit their former course of living<<

Kinda hard to do when you've brought them into the church by using the same things that are in their current course of living.

The Church is to be set apart and sanctified as a holy place. A place for worshipping the Lord in reverence and awe. Not a discotheque/bookstore/coffeehouse/club house/arcade.

You can't call people out of the world by using worldly means. It's like trying to hold an AA meeting at a bar.

"I don't see the deep theology in the second song you posted. God and I are not "buddies". He is my God, my Creator and Sustainer, the LORD of the whole Universe, my Savior and Light."

This is the deepest theology we can begin to understand. How a holy God could call his fallen creation, friend.

Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

>>If you are GETTING THEM INTO CHURCH<<

...by using fleshly means. You're missing the point, Counselor. get them into the church, yes. Compel them to come in, yes. But not with worldy means - do so by using the gospel of Christ.

>>you make the experience somewhat comfortable and once they are in there you bombard them with the Word of Truth.<<

That's known as Bait n' Switch where I come from, and it's dishonest. Again, what happens when the "experience" fades? You're creating a whole environment based on THEIR comfort. Focusing on their needs and what they can get from it, rather than the true point of worship - glorifying God. Can't you see how wrong that is?

The motive is true, the motive is good, I don't doubt that. But the means in which you implement the plan is deceitful by it's very root.

Entirely different context, and therefore an entirely different definition of "friend".

The song's context infers an equal relationship - it's sappy and saccharine-sweet. Frankly, it sounds like a poem a love-sick teenage girl would write to her equally love-sick boyfriend. It sounds - well - juvenile and immature.

I would also daresay that Abraham would have a much different take on his relationship with God than a catchy "JC is my buddy" song.

>>How do you explain all the Christians who have been saved under these "seeker friendly" ministries? Are they all goats? Are they all tares?<<

Not for me to judge, but we should bear in mind that the road to eternal life is narrow and those who find it are few.

I read somewhere that the backslider rates for this "seeker-friendly" phenomena are pretty substantial. I've also seen first-hand people that are swept up in the emotion and "experience", then a few days or weeks later are right back where they started. Not "feeling the experience" anymore.

The song's context infers an equal relationship - it's sappy and saccharine-sweet. Frankly, it sounds like a poem a love-sick teenage girl would write to her equally love-sick boyfriend. It sounds - well - juvenile and immature.

Kinda Childish, huh?

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 18:3-4 KJV)

Do you disagree? That the church building is not to be set apart and sanctified as a holy place?

Examples? Every old testament reference to the holiness of the tabernacle. Nadab and Abihu offering the unclean fire. Eli's two worthless sons profaning the temple and priests. Christ himself driving the money changers out of the temple for turing it into a place of commerce.

If you're content with your church building being some sort of club-house for worldliness - that's on you. We treat ours differently. The gathering of believers is to be a thing of worship, awe, and reverence - giving the LORD His glory and honor. Not satisfying the fleshly desires of the unsaved.

There's no such thing as a carnal Christian.

Oh brother. The passage you cite is a reference that we cling to Christ the way a child clings to his parents. That we rely on Christ for everything as a child relies on his parents.

Not child-like in behavior or maturity. Quite the opposite, we are told to put away childish things and to grow and mature in Christ.

Bad example - try again.

I read somewhere that the backslider rates for this "seeker-friendly" phenomena are pretty substantial

So what?

I don't suppose you've ever backslidden, huh?

I'd have to say that in my experience 100% of all Christians backslide in one way or the other.

It is our job to bring people to where they can receive the truth. If they receive it, it is God's job to see them through. And he will. Whether they backslide or not. Or don't you believe that?

It's the place (the visible church) wherever people gather together in his name, be it a building, a house, a basement, a cave or a field.

In either case, it's to be set apart from the world, just as we (the invisible church) are called to be set apart from the world.

And while the temple itself has been rent, it doesn't negate the holiness of the gathering. See Paul's letters to Timothy on the importance of church structure and order. See Paul's rebuke to the Corinthian church for their very un-holy gatherings.

Now, are you still suggesting that the church isn't to be set apart from the world?

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

The purpose-driven pastor

By Paul Nussbaum

Inquirer Staff Writer