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FK: "Then God does not get what He wants."

Why? Because Bill doesn't go heave and Jo does?

While I appreciate the imagery of God wanting me to puke as opposed to Joe, this isn't exactly what I had in mind. :) (I'm sorry, I couldn't pass on this one :) I was talking about man's free will thwarting God's plan.

Love is respect.

I can see respect being in love, but I don't equate the two at all. Unlike love, I believe respect must be earned. What has man done to earn God's respect?

How can Omnipotent God be humble? How could He possibly respect our decisions? Well, then, this tells me that western Christianity does not know what love is.

From the sound of your framing, perhaps not by your standards. Do you believe that when Jesus went through His torture and death that it had anything to do with His respect for us? Kosta, love and respect are completely different concepts, why do you equate them?

"How can Omnipotent God be humble? How could He possibly respect our decisions? Well, then, this tells me that western Christianity does not know what love is.

From the sound of your framing, perhaps not by your standards. Do you believe that when Jesus went through His torture and death that it had anything to do with His respect for us? Kosta, love and respect are completely different concepts, why do you equate them?"

I think Kosta may have been being a bit ironic in his comment. Orthodoxy stresses the humility of Christ. Witness the following icon "Extreme Humility". The process of theosis necessarily requires a development of a profound degree of humility in order to be "like Christ".

Interestingly, this image of humility isn't applied only to The Logos, Christ, but also to the Holy Spirit. I may have posted this before on this thread, but this comment from the holy Athonite Archimandrite Sophrony demonstrates this forcfully:

"The Holy Spirit comes when we are receptive. He does not compel. He approaches so meekly that we may not even notice. If we would know the Holy Spirit we need to examine ourselves in the light of the Gospel teaching, to detect any other presence which may prevent the Holy Spirit from entering into our souls. We must not wait for God to force Himself on us without our consent. God respects and does not constrain man. It is amazing how God humbles Himself before us. He loves us with a tender love, not haughtily, not with condescension. And when we open our hearts to Him we are overwhelmed by the conviction that He is indeed our Father. The soul then worships in love."

Imagine, FK, the Pantokrator, the Ruler of All Creation approaches us, miserable, self centered us, with meekness, with love, with respect and with humility!

While I appreciate the imagery of God wanting me to puke as opposed to Joe, this isn't exactly what I had in mind. :) (I'm sorry, I couldn't pass on this one :)

FK I was using generic names. It was not personal, trust me. :-)

I was talking about man's free will thwarting God's plan

Just how can man's free will, or for that matter anything man does thwart God's plan? Isn't it God's will for man to be, and to be free, rational, moral being, in His image and likeness?

How are those who abuse their will thwart God's plan, FK? Is the train to heaven going to be late? Is no one going to be saved? The only thing we accompolish when we oppose and reject God is foolishly choose evil and thwart our humanity.

If my goal is to give every homeless person $1,000,000 and some of them spend it foolishly and end up being as broke as they were before, whose fault is that?

I can see respect being in love, but I don't equate the two at all/i>

The two go hand in hand. You cannot love someone you don't respect.

Do you believe that when Jesus went through His torture and death that it had anything to do with His respect for us?

Of course! He asked the Father to forgive them. He respected them as human beings. He only practiced what He preached: love your enemies. Why should we love our enemies? Because even in the deepest spiritual abyss of some people, God's laws are still inscribed in their hearts and, yes, even such individulas can be saved.

From the sound of your framing, perhaps not by your standards (re: How could God be humble?)

Well, Kolo picked up on my jest, but then he knows me, so it's not really fair. Everything about Christ is humility. The King of Kings was born like a pauper, in a smelly, dark, cold place full of animals, and of a teenage unwed Mother, with no father to claim as His biological parent. He was not a doctor, or a judge, but a carpenter, nothing prestigeous. He was as docile as a lamb, save for the moneychangers and that was understandable.

You see, the Jews looked at Him with that simplistic point of view and thought: if He is the Son of God, He neither looks the part nor does He act as one. Why? Because it is human nature to imagine God to be like those who rule over us -- powerful tyrants, or government officials who pretend to be public "servants" but often abuse their power. Christ demonstrated that God is nothing like that, that our idea of a Tyrant God is not what God is, but instead God is like Christ, forgiving and loving and humble.

This is why we call Him our Savior. Without Him we could never follow in God's steps, because our concept of God is nothing even remote as what Christ presented. And without Christ as an Example to follow, we would never find the way, the truth and the light.

Pagans worshiped powerful gods. Even the Jews cold not accept a humble God. To quote the High Priest "If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross." (Mat 27:40) and "If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him." (Mat 27:42).

Why? Because we all have this erroneous idea that God is just like us. He is not. Jesus was nothing like any of us. There was not an ounce of pride in Him, no matter what they did to Him. Imagine, the King of Kings being humiliated and spat on as He was beaten and tortured. If any of us tried to do that people would say "Fool, do something!"

While I appreciate the imagery of God wanting me to puke as opposed to Joe, this isn't exactly what I had in mind. :) (I'm sorry, I couldn't pass on this one :) I was talking about man's free will thwarting God's plan.

What did I do now??? ;)

Regards