Thank-you for the ping, Alex.
FK, I have re-read many of the posts on this thread and I have sincerely tried to understand the apparent rejection by Protestantism of the first 1500 years of Christian theology on salvation in favor of a once saved always saved mindset. Where does this come from? I have read the proof texts presented, but when I read the Fathers on this, I see a unanimity of understanding and expression which is nearly without peer in Christian belief and that is that salvation, or theosis, is a very individual process which most of us "work out with fear and trembling" in our liturgical communities. It is also clear, especially from the Desert Fathers who were writing for the instruction of their monks, that even the most advanced in spirituality and in spiritual practices can come up short, even end up destroyed, if, in their presumptuous arrogance and pride, they either never develope, or do not exercise the divine gift of discernment.
This idea of an instant salvation I think is particularly dangerous, especially to people who really believe this has happened to them because then they can fall prey to all sorts of demonic mischief. Indeed,it seems to me that if anyone, and I do mean anyone, believes that he or she is saved in a particular instant and that is quite literally the end of that, the ticket has been punched and can't be unpunched, he has no discernment at all and is, likely, doomed to destruction by the Evil One. It says to me that these people have not been properly guided by someone in the capacity of a spiritual father, an elder if you will. +John Cassian relates this story about monks discussing the process of theosis with +Anthony the Great, the founder of monasticism. The story is about 1800 years old:
"I remember the years when I was still a boy in that section of the Thebaid where the blessed Anthony used to live. Some older men came to visit him and to talk to him about perfection. Their talk lasted from the evening hours until dawn and the problem we are now discussing took up the greatest part of the night.
"There was a most searching inquiry into which of the virtues and which observance could always preserve a monk from the snares and deceptions of the devil and could lead him with firm tread on a sure path to the summit of perfection. Each one offered an opinion in accordance with the understanding he had of the matter. Some declared that by means of zealous fasting and the keeping of vigils the mind would be enlarged and would produce purity of heart and body so as to enable one to come all the more easily into union with God. Others posited detachment from everything in order that the mind, shorn of everything, freed from all the snares which were holding it back, would come more speedily to God. Others thought that what was necessary was to get completely away, to have the solitude and secrecy of the desert where a man, living there always, could converse more intimately with God and where union could be achieved more directly. Some opted for the practice of charity, that is to say, the works of hospitality, since it was to people of this kind that the Lord in the gospel promised especially that he would give the kingdom of heaven. 'Come, you blessed ones of my father, come and possess the kingdom which has been ready for you since the beginning of the world. I was hungry and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me a drink,' and so on (Matthew 25: 34-35).
"Thus it was that the different virtues were said to give a more certain access to God. And most of the night was spent in this inquiry.
"Finally, the blessed Anthony spoke. 'All the things that you have spoken about are necessary and helpful to those thirsting for God and longing to reach him. But the countless disasters and experiences of many people do not permit that any one of these virtues should be said to be the prime influence for good. For very often we have seen people who have been most zealous in their fasts and vigils, who have lived wondrously solitary lives, who have endured such total privation of everything that they would not allow themselves to hold on to even a day's food or even a single coin of the lowest value, who have hastened to do all that is required in charity - and who have suddenly fallen prey to illusion with the result that not only could they not give a fitting end to the work they had undertaken but they brought to an abominable conclusion that high zeal of theirs and that praiseworthy mode of life. Hence if we probe the exact reason for their delusion and fall we will be able to recognize what it is that, above all else, leads us to God. The virtuous activities, of which you were talking, flourished among them. But the lack of discernment prevented them from reaching the end. No other cause can be found for their downfall. Lacking the training provided by older men they could in no way acquire this virtue of discernment which, avoiding extremes, teaches the monk to walk always on the royal road. It keeps him from veering to the right, that is, it keeps him from going with stupid presumption and excessive fervor beyond the boundary of reasonable restraint. It keeps him from going to the left to carelessness and sin, to sluggishness of spirit, and all this on the pretext of actually keeping the body under control."
FK, I have re-read many of the posts on this thread and I have sincerely tried to understand the apparent rejection by Protestantism of the first 1500 years of Christian theology on salvation in favor of a once saved always saved mindset. Where does this come from? I have read the proof texts presented, but when I read the Fathers on this,
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Best read the BOOK not the fathers.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
It's funny you should bring it up. About a million posts ago I was arguing once saved always saved, just because that was all that I knew. Then Harley showed me the much superior doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, which I quickly adopted. This doctrine includes the element of good works as a natural fruit of true salvation. It also, by default, includes the element of discernment, which is also a natural fruit of salvation through the Spirit we receive at regeneration. "We" could blow it and lose our salvation, but due to God's promises, that will not happen. It is not that 'once saved always saved' is completely wrong or evil, it is much more that it is clumsy and defenseless when faced with all the scriptures that talk about "running the race", etc. However, the general idea is still there.
I admit I don't know where the core idea came from, but here are some verses that seem to support it:
Eph 4:29-30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 1:12-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory.
John 10:26-30 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
Rom 8:37-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I think the general idea is rooted in both God's sovereignty to order the universe as He sees fit, and also that once we are (from our POV) claimed and marked by God, it's a done deal.
This idea of an instant salvation I think is particularly dangerous, especially to people who really believe this has happened to them because then they can fall prey to all sorts of demonic mischief. Indeed,it seems to me that if anyone, and I do mean anyone, believes that he or she is saved in a particular instant and that is quite literally the end of that, the ticket has been punched and can't be unpunched, he has no discernment at all and is, likely, doomed to destruction by the Evil One. It says to me that these people have not been properly guided by someone in the capacity of a spiritual father, an elder if you will.
I could not agree with you more about this danger. Just as in your example, in my experience this is most frequently manifested in this type of person: "OK, John 3:16? Fine, whatever, I'll sign, see you next Easter." :) I have actually heard the equivalent of this. Just as you said, these people are in dire need of much further instruction, from God but through us.
I was pretty close to being that guy myself at one point. Then later, the Spirit touched me and led me to want to know more about my faith. Thank God! But, this isn't atypical for the process of sanctification. It always happens only on the Spirit's time table.