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To: Kolokotronis

FK, I have re-read many of the posts on this thread and I have sincerely tried to understand the apparent rejection by Protestantism of the first 1500 years of Christian theology on salvation in favor of a once saved always saved mindset. Where does this come from? I have read the proof texts presented, but when I read the Fathers on this,

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Best read the BOOK not the fathers.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.


2,211 posted on 02/01/2006 4:29:55 AM PST by Dewy (1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;)
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To: Dewy; annalex; kosta50; Forest Keeper
"Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Dewy, nobody, to my knowledge argues with this from +Paul, nor, at least on the Orthodox side, with the proposition that faith without works is dead. Surely you don't ascribe to the notion that theosis is effected by a dead faith?

"John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

No man can pluck those who have attained even a level of theosis from the hands of God. But the Evil One can and any individual man can, by turning away from God, cut himself off from God. Until one has attained complete theosis, until such time as one has died completely to the self and exists only in full union with the uncreated energies of God, the potential for, indeed in virtually all cases, the likelihood of sin persists. This is not inconsistent at all with what +John is saying. The reason +John can say this is because by the Incarnation, mankind has been restored to the potential of fulfilling its created purpose, which potential was destroyed by the Sin of Adam and restored by Christ. The potential, Dewey, our created purpose, was and is to enter into an eternal union with our Triune God. That's what salvation is.

Tell me, Dewy, have you ever met anyone who has died completely to the self, whose entire being is focused solely on God to the exclusion of all else? Do the people who tell you that on such and such a day they were"saved" exist completely in union with God? I don't doubt for a minute that these people believe they are "saved". I'll also suggest that the reason these people believed they are "saved" is because they lack "discernment".
2,212 posted on 02/01/2006 7:22:01 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Dewy; Kolokotronis
You present short quotes ignoring their context by the dosen, but you do not make your case. I'll concentrate on these two, the Gospel of John and Ephesians first:

John 10 speaks of those who "hear his voice" and asserts their security from the devil. But the passage does not tell us who these faithful sheep are and when they became that way. The assertion you imply, that a declaration of faith converts one into a faithfull sheep is not in the text.

Let us read Ephesians starting with the passage you excerpted in Chapter 2:

1 And you, when you were dead in your offences, and sins, 2 Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of this air, of the spirit that now worketh on the children of unbelief: 3 In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest: 4 But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) 6 And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. 7 That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.
Note that St. Paul draws a contrast between the works of the world and faith obtained by grace. Now we understand what "works" he is talking about: the works of the world done for selfish reason. But wait. Where is Paul going with this? Let us read some more (Chapter 3):
17 That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts; that being rooted and founded in charity, 18 You may be able to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and height, and depth: 19 To know also the charity of Christ, which surpasseth all knowledge, that you may be filled unto all the fulness of God. 20 Now to him who is able to do all things more abundantly than we desire or understand, according to the power that worketh in us;
So, that faith is there to bring forth fruits: charity, knowledge, and power. St. Paul concludes his thought(Chapter 4)
1 I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, 2 With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

[...]

11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; 14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. 15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ:

And on and on, for two more chapters, St. Paul urges those you fancy "saved" to "walk in love". Toward the end, that walk becomes a battle (Chapter 6):
6 Not serving to the eye, as it were pleasing men, but, as the servants of Christ doing the will of God from the heart, 7 With a good will serving, as to the Lord, and not to men. 8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man shall do, the same shall he receive from the Lord

[...]

11 Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil. 12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places. 13 Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect.

Loks like St. Paul wants those "once-saved-always-saved" to do quite a bit of work before they can be safe from the "spirits of wickedness".

But why even pick lines from John ans Ephesians when Christ told us in no uncertain terms that a lifetime of faith working through love is the basis of our salvation, and declarative faith is not?

This is who will be saved (Matthew 25):

35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: 36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me
This is who will not be
42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
And this is what declarative faith gets us (Matthew 7):
21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Now it is time to remember those sheep from John 10. When do we know that they are those faithful sheep? Is it when they call "lord, lord"? Or is it when, their life's work of charity done, Christ separates them from goats?
2,218 posted on 02/01/2006 5:37:46 PM PST by annalex
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