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To: Kolokotronis; Dewy; HarleyD; annalex; jo kus
FK, I have re-read many of the posts on this thread and I have sincerely tried to understand the apparent rejection by Protestantism of the first 1500 years of Christian theology on salvation in favor of a once saved always saved mindset. Where does this come from?

It's funny you should bring it up. About a million posts ago I was arguing once saved always saved, just because that was all that I knew. Then Harley showed me the much superior doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, which I quickly adopted. This doctrine includes the element of good works as a natural fruit of true salvation. It also, by default, includes the element of discernment, which is also a natural fruit of salvation through the Spirit we receive at regeneration. "We" could blow it and lose our salvation, but due to God's promises, that will not happen. It is not that 'once saved always saved' is completely wrong or evil, it is much more that it is clumsy and defenseless when faced with all the scriptures that talk about "running the race", etc. However, the general idea is still there.

I admit I don't know where the core idea came from, but here are some verses that seem to support it:

Eph 4:29-30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Eph 1:12-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory.

John 10:26-30 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

Rom 8:37-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I think the general idea is rooted in both God's sovereignty to order the universe as He sees fit, and also that once we are (from our POV) claimed and marked by God, it's a done deal.

This idea of an instant salvation I think is particularly dangerous, especially to people who really believe this has happened to them because then they can fall prey to all sorts of demonic mischief. Indeed,it seems to me that if anyone, and I do mean anyone, believes that he or she is saved in a particular instant and that is quite literally the end of that, the ticket has been punched and can't be unpunched, he has no discernment at all and is, likely, doomed to destruction by the Evil One. It says to me that these people have not been properly guided by someone in the capacity of a spiritual father, an elder if you will.

I could not agree with you more about this danger. Just as in your example, in my experience this is most frequently manifested in this type of person: "OK, John 3:16? Fine, whatever, I'll sign, see you next Easter." :) I have actually heard the equivalent of this. Just as you said, these people are in dire need of much further instruction, from God but through us.

I was pretty close to being that guy myself at one point. Then later, the Spirit touched me and led me to want to know more about my faith. Thank God! But, this isn't atypical for the process of sanctification. It always happens only on the Spirit's time table.

2,238 posted on 02/02/2006 1:52:53 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
Then later, the Spirit touched me and led me to want to know more about my faith...

Oh,please, don't flatter yourself! Just how do you know it was the Spirit? Everyone uses that phrase. I think it's using the Lord's name in vain, as some kind of warranty.

How do you know it wasn't Satan distorting your views? The answer is plain and simple: you don't know.

2,240 posted on 02/02/2006 3:13:40 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; annalex
FK, you have made a fascinating post. I think I now see where part of the problem is and its in how you use the word "salvation". As I understand your use of the term, salvation is the result of "regeneration" by the Holy Spirit and good works (I'll leave aside discernment for a moment) are the fruit of "salvation"? Right?

I have been looking at your word "salvation" as the equivalent of our word "theosis". I think I can say with some confidence that when a Roman Catholic uses the word salvation he means theosis but it is evident that you are using it in a different way. I also notice that you use the words "process of sanctification" seemingly as an equivalent with "salvation". For Orthodox Christians and for Roman Catholics, there is a distinction between salvation or theosis and the "process of santification" or the "process of theosis". That process is always as a result, both initially and ultimately, of grace or the uncreated energies of God by the Holy Spirit. +Symeon the New Theologian a man who some say attained theosis in this life, puts it this way:

"Can a man take fire into his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?' (Prov. 6:27) says the wise Solomon. And I say: can he, who has in his heart the Divine fire of the Holy Spirit burning naked, not be set on fire, not shine and glitter and not take on the radiance of the Deity in the degree of his purification and penetration by fire? For penetration by fire follows upon purification of the heart, and again purification of the heart follows upon penetration by fire, that is, inasmuch as the heart is purified, so it receives Divine grace, and again inasmuch as it receives grace, so it is purified. When this is completed (that is, purification of heart and acquisition of grace have attained their fullness and perfection), through grace a man becomes wholly a god."

What he is describing here until the final sentence is the gradual process of theosis. The final sentence describes complete theosis, which the Roman Catholics call 'salvation". Theosis or salvation for us is the "end product" and is not descriptive of the process.

+Thalassios taught the same thing in a different manner; note the final sentence:

"...when the intellect has been perfected, it unites wholly with God and is illumined by divine light, and the most hidden mysteries are revealed to it. Then it truly learns where wisdom and power lie... While it is still fighting against the passions it cannot as yet enjoy these things... But once the battle is over and it is found worthy of spiritual gifts, then it becomes wholly luminous, powerfully energized by grace and rooted in the contemplation of spiritual realities. A person in whom this happens is not attached to the things of this world but has passed from death to life."

Works, as the fruit of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and also as a preparation of the "self" for more "fire" of the Holy Spirit, play a vital roll in the this process of theosis. As +Gregory Palamas wrote, note again the final sentence:

"After our forefather's transgression in paradise through the tree, we suffered the death of our soul - which is the separation of the soul from God - prior to our bodily death; yet although we cast away our divine likeness, we did not lose our divine image. Thus when the soul renounces its attachment to inferior things and cleaves through love to God and submits itself to Him through acts and modes of virtue, it is illuminated and made beautiful by God and is raised to a higher level, obeying His counsels and exhortations; and by these means it regains the truly eternal life. Through this life it makes the body conjoined to it immortal, so that in due time the body attains the promised resurrection and participates in eternal glory."

Thus for the theology of The Church, what you call "salvation" we call a process, salvation or theosis being what these Fathers are speaking of in the final sentences of the above snips. Now as for falling away during the process, well the Fathers are unanimous in their conviction that indeed that can happen. The process of theosis, theosis itself and the possibility of failure during the process as The Church believes is graphically demonstrated by the icon of the Ladder of Divine Ascent; I don't think I've posted it on this thread:

We start at the bottom of the Ladder and climb upward to union with Christ which is theosis. Along the way we are tempted by demons and encouraged by angels. Some make it, others fall off the Ladder into the Pit (notice that the one headlong into Hell and the third and fourth up the Ladder falling off are hierarchs, very Eastern! :))

Your quotes have not been interpreted by the Fathers or The Church as meaning we cannot fail of our goal of theosis. The first two texts refer, so The Fathers say, to our sealing with Holy Chrism at Chrismation. Indeed, in the Orthodox sacrament, the priest says, as he annoits the Christian, "The servant of God N is sealed in the name of The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit...." The next verse, from John, is interpreted to mean that while no one can "snatch" us from the hand of God, we can "fall" out of it. As +John Chrysostomos writes in Homily VI on Phillipians:

"As long as we are in the hand of God, “no one is able to pluck us out” (John x. 28.), for that hand is strong; but when we fall away from that hand and that help, then are we lost, then are we exposed, ready to be snatched away, as a “bowing wall, and a tottering fence” (Ps. lxii. 3.); when the wall is weak, it will be easy for all to surmount."

The final quote from Romans is repeated time and again by the Fathers for two purposes. One is to demonstrate how God's love falls on all, the good and the evil equally:

"Love never hates anyone, never reproves anyone, never condemns anyone, never grieves anyone, never abhors anyone, neither faithful nor infidel nor stranger nor sinner nor fornicator, nor anyone impure, but instead it is precisely sinners, and weak and negligent souls that it loves more, and feels pain for them and grieves and laments, and it feels sympathy for the wicked and sinners, more than for the good, imitating Christ Who called sinners, and ate and drank with them. For this reason, showing what real love is, He taught saying, 'Become good and merciful like your Father in Heaven,' and as He rains on bad and good and makes the sun to rise on just and unjust alike, so also is the one who has real love, and has compassion, and prays for all." Abba Ammonas (one of the Desert Fathers)

The second reason is to demonstrate that we all have equal access to God's grace, as +Peter the Damascene writes:

""We all receive God's blessings equally. But some of us, receiving God's fire, that is, His word, become soft like beeswax, while the others like clay become hard as stone. And if we do not want Him, He does not force any of us, but like the sun He sends His rays and illuminates the whole world, and he who wants to see Him, sees Him, whereas the one who does not want to see Him, is not forced by Him. And no one is responsible for this privation of light except the one who does not want to have it. God created the sun and the eye. Man is free to receive the sun's light or not. The same is true here. God sends the light of knowledge like rays to all, but He also gave us faith like an eye. The one who wants to receive knowledge through faith, keeps it by his works, and so God gives him more willingness, knowledge, and power"

So, it seems you are using "salvation" in a different way than we do. Tell me, what do you believe happens after the death of the body? BTW, sorry for being so long winded.

2,241 posted on 02/02/2006 4:24:54 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; Dewy; annalex; jo kus
"...apparent rejection by Protestantism of the first 1500 years of Christian theology on salvation in favor of a once saved always saved mindset. Where does this come from?"

First let me state that our Catholic or Orthodox friends would like us to believe the Protestantism just POPPED into existence 1500 years after they've been humming along. This is far from true. The Reformed belief is the true belief of the western early church. The Orthodox church built their theology around John Cassian, a student of Pelagius, both of whom were condemned by the western church as heretics. Many of us Reformers would argue that we are the remnant of the true western church. The Roman Catholics started heading east around 600AD and finally made the transition with Trent.

That being said, when the Arminians broke away from the Calvinists they created the Remonstrant laying out their 5-Points. One of these points was the belief that a person could so fall away from grace that they would no longer be saved (btw-You'll find the 5-points of the Remonstrant to be very close to Roman Catholic theology.) The Synod of Dort countered the Remonstrant with the TULIP which stated while it IS possible for people to fall away, it will never happen simply because we are sustained by God's grace through our Lord Jesus who watches over His flock.

My understanding on this whole OSAS mess is that over time there were some Arminians didn't like the idea of losing one salvation. It smack of works. However they couldn't overtly go back to the Calvinists and say, "Well, looky here. I guess you fellers were right about the PotS all along." Instead they invented OSAS which is a bastardized version of the two views. Please see: A review article on R. T. Kendall’s Once Saved, Always Saved This view allow men to continue to be saved while at the same time retaining their free will. If there is one thing Arminians don't want to give up it's their free will.

To be frank while I believed in OSAS for 30 years I never understood the scriptures behind it and certain I did not understand how one could fall away and still be a Christian. It made no sense and when I would ask questions I simply get the standard, "Let's move on..." kind of comment. Of course if you go with the Catholic/Orthodox/some Protestant view of man losing his salvation, IMHO, you are into works. PotS is the only system that seems consistent with God's grace and salvation while placing the right emphasis on works. Plus it has scripture the Arminians can't explain.


2,242 posted on 02/02/2006 5:25:08 PM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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