Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[Kolokotronis]

"1 Corinthians 3:11-15

That's a good description of what happens in purgatory. One shall "suffer as by fire". I don't see ANYONE suffering in heaven, brother... These verses are not talking about "losing rewards". They are talking about the purging fire that will cleanse away any remaining impurities - for nothing impure shall enter heaven."

Its also exemplified by this from Discourse 78 of +Symeon the New Theologian:

"Do not deceive yourself. God is fire and when He came into the world, and became man, He sent fire on the earth, as He Himself says; this fire turns about searching to find material — that is a disposition and an intention that is good — to fall into and to kindle; and for those in whom this fire will ignite, it becomes a great flame, which reaches Heaven. ... this flame at first purifies us from the pollution of passions and then it becomes in us food and drink and light and joy, and renders us light ourselves because we participate in His light."

Of course, the East, having a somewhat different concept of what happens after death of the body, doesn't embrace the idea of purgatory.

[HarleyD]

if one reads some of the earlier Western grammars of LXX Greek, one sees these scholars -- grounded in what they consider to be "proper" classical Greek

I have given you a reference (which refers to others) that would disagree with your interpretation on the Greek. While I'm not an expert on this there does seem to be significant room for debate and it is not as clear as you would like to indicate.

No, but I can point out that Protestants read their own deeper meanings into this and other passages in the Bible. The difference, again, is that Protestants do so while completely ignoring or approaching patristic writings with extreme skepticism -- picking a few things and rejecting most of the rest. While we Orthodox use our brains and the guidance of the Holy Spirit

Oh please. This is a little too much. I'm not reading ANYTHING into this verse except to say that it states "Give us this day our daily bread." I've believe I have stated several times now this is fitting with the context of Matthew 6 in which our Lord talks about just living for today.

I have already shown how the Orthodox and Catholics pick and choose their writings. Do you agree with Augustine about predestination or all unbaptized babies going to hell? We all pick and choose from the fathers what we agree with.

You have completely ignore those fathers who disagree with your interpretation. It is you who are reading far more into this passage than I. I suppose that is because you're guided by the Holy Spirit.

You have no more direct evidence from Scripture that it wasn't daily than we have clear evidence that it was -- and you perhaps have less.

If you want my "direct evidence" I would refer you to tradition. (Ain't that a switch?) There is no traditional evidence that communion was taken daily-not by the apostles or the early church fathers. You need to look back at tradition, my son.

St. Paul says "as oft as ye" eat and drink the Body and Blood... so there I don't see a command for all to receive daily anywhere in the Scriptures, personally.

First you try to tell me that the verse, "Give us this day our daily bread." means that we should consume the Eucharist daily, then you tell me the Eastern Church never felt this was necessary. Now you tell me you don't see a command to receive it daily. Make up your mind.

"that if one considers all churches and monasteries worldwide, many Orthodox priests are serving the Divine Liturgy and the Body and Blood of Christ are being partaken of by many -- not only daily, but probably around the clock..

So now communion can be taken in Bangkok and you don't have to worry about it here because someone else has taken it. This is fulfilling the commandment? Please. I might not use my brains or be guided by the Holy Spirit but I do have some common sense. ;O)

You'd better write those Reformed folks who put out "Daily Bread," then, and tell them that they need to stop their presumption

If the "Daily Bread" is Reformed I'll eat my hat. I can't find anything in the mission statement to indicate they are. Their writing sure would not indicate that they are.

That being said, you seem to think I'm equating "Give us this day our daily bread" with the word of God. I have heard some interpret this verse, this way. I do not. It is simply to remind us that our sustenance is based upon God's grace.

You're reading far more into this then is there. Next thing you'll be telling me is that the United States is the lost tribe of Manassah.

[Kolokotronis]

"I find not one translation of the passage which is rendered ... suffers as by fire.

Each of a dozen translations I can find all say that such a one shall suffer loss, ... but is, himself, saved, ... as by fire."

Your translations from the Greek are accurate. Jo, your read is not correct.

[Agrarian]

"There you go again, adding to my reading list."

Ha! These gentlemen are hardly on the same level as the other things that have been suggested on this list, but if you get toxed out on theological reading and want to read some first-rate literary criticism and commentary on maintaining sanity in the modern world, writers like Tate, Ransom, and Davidson -- not to mention more recent writers such as the poet Wendell Berry and the political historian and literary critic M.E. Bradford make are very nice reads over a good single-malt whiskey...

[Agrarian]

I'm a little confused. All along, I have been basically agreeing with you on what the primary meaning of "epiousios" seems to have been. I don't see how you could make reference to "as clear as you would like to indicate," when my precise point was that this unique word was unknown in classical or LXX Greek, was probably newly coined for the NT, and thus would seem to be anything but simple and clear.

Well, I think we've probably reached the end of the useful line on this one. You may be one of those rare Protestants who never sees deeper or secondary meanings in Scriptures -- I certainly wasn't saying what meanings you did or didn't see in that line, I was simply stating that I've not found that Protestants are any less likely to see secondary, spiritual, or allegorical meanings in Scriptural texts than are Catholics or Orthodox. As to daily communion, I think I was pretty clear -- the New Testament church in Jerusalem seems to have gathered daily to break bread, including, we would assume, having communion. There is no hard evidence for this, but it is the tradition we have. On the other hand, we Orthodox don't see a command for all Christians to commune daily anywhere in Scripture -- but we do still see it as an ideal, if we had the privilege of living in an ideal world.

I'll otherwise leave the discussion with your final comments. I will say, though, that while the mission statement may not be explicitly Reformed, nor may its current theology be adequately pure from a Reformed perspective these days, Daily Bread and RBC ministries were founded by M.R. De Haan in Grand Rapids, MI -- Dutch Reformed, in the U.S. capital of Dutch Reformedness. It is a staple of devotional life in the main branches of the Dutch Reformed tradition here in the U.S.

[stripes1776]

To make any claims other than "our daily bread" is presumptuous.

I don't know if it is presumptuous, but I do like your emphasis on the plain meaning of daily bread because it is so plain and ordinary. It is too easy to take the plain and ordinary for granted and fail to see how magnificent the common and ordinary things are.

But I don't think anyone has taken note of what I consider to be the most important word in "Give us today our daily bread." It is the word "give." To give means to render a gift to someone, and a true gift is not wages for a job well done. To receive our daily bread, and all the other things that support our physical existence, is a gift indeed. We say grace before a meal to give thanks before participating in God's bounty. That is certainly a state of grace.

Eucharist means thanksgiving, and that is the important idea. We never enjoy the world aright until we gives thanks for every common and ordinary thing--no matter how small and seemingly unimportant--as gift. When living becomes thanksgiving, I think we come closer to what Geothe was referring to when he wrote: "So waiting, I have won from You the end, God's presence in each element."

[stripes1776]

...want to read some first-rate literary criticism and commentary on maintaining sanity in the modern world, writers like Tate, Ransom, and Davidson -- not to mention more recent writers such as the poet Wendell Berry and the political historian and literary critic M.E. Bradford make are very nice reads over a good single-malt whiskey...

I very much like reading literary and cultural criticism. I have never read any of the authors you mention, but I am putting them on my reading list (long--very long).

I just finished reading some critical essays by C.S. Lewis on literature. Excellent. Also almost done with Tolkiens's "The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essays." I have read almost everything the cultural historian and critic Jacques Barzun has written. I also like Victor Hanson who is a classical scholar, military historian, and farmer. His knowledge of farming helped him make a significant contribution to understanding how the ancient Athenians fought war.

Reading is one of the greatest pleasures in life. Of course tastes vary, but I don't know how you can develop any taste without reading.

[Agrarian]

Jacques Barzun's "From Dawn to Decadence" has been sitting on my shelf for a long time, but I've not cracked it. Chilton Williamson gave it a good review, and he deeply respected Barzun when he studied under him at Columbia. I'll put it on my list of many books I need to pull off my shelf!

I'd not heard of Victor Hanson, but after looking up some thing about him, I was so immediately interested that I just ordered a couple of his books from abebooks, and I look forward to getting them. I also ordered a copy of Crunchy Cons, as recommended by Martin Tell -- it looks like it will be a fun read. I suspect that I may find that I am a bit of a crunchy con myself (but don't tell anyone around where I live.) :-)

A life without reading would be an unthinkable one for me and my wife. There are few things we enjoy more than sitting quietly together and reading -- occasionally interrupting the other's concentration to read some choice bit out loud.

My favorite non-fiction C.S. Lewis book is "The Discarded Image" -- a wonderful little book that is really a key to the scholarship that underlies so many of the enticing tidbits of classical and medieval literature that he scatters through his fiction -- especially his "space" trilogy, which remain my favorite of his fictional works.

[kosta50]

I think you have to go the other way and say that the soul is created mortal and only receives its immortality at the Resurrection of the dead when it is reunited with the body

Very thought-provoking and informative, thank you.

Cappadocian Fathers held that God created man potentially mortal or immortal. They believe that based on our conviction that man has free will.

We certainly believe that it is only through the grace of God and not by our nature that we can become immortal.

But that takes us into another direction: I think they are talking about our "natural" state of dying or not dying physical death. Your last sentence reflects that view. For we shall be made whole again.

The only thing that remains uncertain is what happens to our free will. Do we lose it and become mindless do-gooders, or do we retain it and run a risk of another Fall? The Creed, after all, does not say we shall live forever, but only that we look forward to the Age to come.

However, one thing is certain, the souls shall live regardless; only the new bodies are to be created; not the souls.

What about a soul without a body? The Orthodox Church teaches that a soul "lives" after physical death, and is even conscious! The fact that it is in an "unnatural" state (i.e. separated from the body) causes it to "feel" discomfort, a feeling further burdened by tghe shame experienced by residual unrepented sins.

A soul, through the prayers of the Church and God's love, is "purified" which also relieves some of the discomfort and shame. The purification is necessary in order for a soul destined to enter the Kingdom of Heaven at the Second Coming because something that is not thoroughly cleansed and pure cannot enter God's House.

Now, don't ask me how do they know all this? I have no clue, but the after-life is a pretty much done deal in Orthodox Christianity and I believe equally in Roman Catholicism.

[stripes1776]

Jacques Barzun's "From Dawn to Decadence" has been sitting on my shelf for a long time

The Western Civilization requirement has been dropped from every college in America (except maybe Hillsdale and St. Johns.) Barzun wrote the book at the age of 93 so people could learn the history of their own culture. He has written lots of other stuff, like "The House of Intellect" back in 1959. I didn't realize that the curriculum in universities was in collapse even back then until I read his book.

Victor Hanson has a website that you might want to look at. He writes articles for several publications like National Review and posts them there. He is now a fellow at the Hoover Institute at Stanford, and I think he has stopped teaching so he can devote his time to writing.

My favorite non-fiction C.S. Lewis book is "The Discarded Image"

My goal is to read everything he has written. I am working on it.

Enjoy your reading.

[Agrarian]

"The Creed, after all, does not say we shall live forever, but only that we look forward to the Age to come."

While it isn't spelled out in the Creed, St. Paul does say in I Thes that "we shall be with the Lord forever" after the resurrection.

A book worth reading is "Free Choice in St. Maximus the Confessor" -- it is a treatment of free choice in the next life, as touched on by St. Maximus in his various writings. Bottom line as I recall it is that we will indeed have free choice, being faced with a multiplicity (perhaps an infinity) of choices -- but in that next life, *all* of the choices before us will be good.

[kosta50]

Free Choice in St. Maximus the Confessor" -- it is a treatment of free choice in the next life...we will indeed have free choice, being faced with a multiplicity (perhaps an infinity) of choices -- but in that next life, *all* of the choices before us will be good

Fascinating. I will have to look for that book.

[Agrarian]

"The Western Civilization requirement has been dropped from every college in America (except maybe Hillsdale and St. Johns.)"

The little Christian liberal arts college I graduated from 20 years ago had a rigid 4 semester sequence that integrated political, art, architectural, literary, musical, etc... history -- in short Western civilization in its broadest consideration. A major portion of our grades depended on our abilities in exams to write lengthy essays synthesizing and integrating all of these things on a couple of topics (which one always hoped would be ones we remembered a lot about.)

At the time, I chafed a bit, wishing I could take specialized niche courses as did folks in other universities I had heard about. Now, I am extremely grateful for the disciplined overview that I received...

My wife and I find ourselves sharing much of this with our kids over the dinner table and pointing them towards this or that work, knowing that they won't be getting it at school.

[Agrarian]

It was published by St. Tikhon's Seminary Press, but I think it is out of print. Hard to find nowadays, but occasionally a used copy turns up on amazon.com, and I'm sure it could be obtained easily through interlibrary loan.

[stripes1776]

The little Christian liberal arts college I graduated from 20 years ago had a rigid 4 semester sequence that integrated political, art, architectural, literary, musical, etc... history -- in short Western civilization in its broadest consideration.

An oasis in a great desert. I hope they haven't changed and they aren't taking any money from the federal government because they will then be forced to change.

My wife and I find ourselves sharing much of this with our kids over the dinner table and pointing them towards this or that work, knowing that they won't be getting it at school.

That is so important.

[HarleyD]

All along, I have been basically agreeing with you on what the primary meaning of "epiousios" seems to have been. I don't see how you could make reference to "as clear as you would like to indicate," when my precise point was that this unique word was unknown in classical or LXX Greek

I must be misreading your statement. I've gone back and reread it but there must be a disconnect somewhere. Typing pithy little comments back and forth sometimes isn't the best type of forum for discussing some of these theological nuances. From the above statement, you're obvious coming from some other point of view than how I'm reading it, and the way I'm reading it and my response probably sounds like I have my "righteous Protestant indignation" up which isn't the case. We are obviously miscommunicating.

I think we're in agreement. It is very interesting why this unique word is used by our Lord. I can understand the Catholics and Orthodox wishing to point it out and the Protestants wishing to minimize it. Fact is, if it hasn't been figured out for 2,000 years by experts I doubt if we'll figure it out.

[HarleyD]

It is the word "give." To give means to render a gift to someone, and a true gift is not wages for a job well done.

That is an excellent point. I guess we've been so focus on our "daily" needs that we forgot the "giving" part. Isn't that always the case.

[Martin Tell]

I just ordered "From Dawn to Decadence" from the library. Thanks for the recommendation.

I recently finished "The Discarded Image." It was much more readable than I feared. The main point I carried away was that Medieval man was willing to admit that his conceptions of the universe were a theory, while the modern scientist insists that his facts are true. A good example is evolution. Try calling evolution a "theory" (even here on FR) and see the angry reaction from those who consider themselves scientists.

I have read most of C.S. Lewis, even some of his letters and diary, but I have not been able to make it through "The Allegory of Love." It's pretty deep, at least to me.

My current reading consists of books about small scale farming (my spiritual adviser counseled against continuing to read the Philokalia or other patristic works - at least for now). I am considering moving a small distance from the city - maybe trying a hobby farm. Time to put some Agrarian principles into action! My wife is all for it, but the kids are not.

[kosta50]

While it isn't spelled out in the Creed, St. Paul does say in I Thes that "we shall be with the Lord forever" after the resurrection

I don't mean to sound cynical, but that can be taken many ways.

[Kolokotronis]

"My current reading consists of books about small scale farming (my spiritual adviser counseled against continuing to read the Philokalia or other patristic works - at least for now)."

You know, it has been my experience that far too many people, especially converts, jump right into the Philokalia. Its a shame more spiritual fathers don't give the advice yours has given you. One particular penchant we in the West tend to have is to become quite legalistic. Without an appreciation for the phronema of Orthodoxy and the development of a certain degree of discernment, legalism can be soul destroying as a source of pride and destructive of mercy.

I am reminded of the book my wife's Ladies' Society from the parish is reading. It was chosen by relatively recent convert. Its called Facing East and was written by Fredrica Mathewes-Green. The "cradle" Orthodox women and longtime converts like my wife were really turned off by how enamored the author was of legalism, of the rules, in her first year or so as an Orthodox Christian. I understand that her subsequent books have backed way off that legalism, but the book is still out there, still playing into a natural tendency of Western converts to be legalistic. Anyway, reading the Philokalia early on can cause real problems. Your spiritual father has done you a great favor. You're lucky to have him.