Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

At the time of the Reformation, many hoped Martin Luther and Erasmus could unite against the errors of the Roman Catholic Church. Luther himself was tempted to unite with Erasmus because Erasmus was a great Renaissance scholar who studied the classics and the Greek New Testament. Examining the Roman Catholic Church, Erasmus was infuriated with the abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, especially those of the clergy. These abuses are vividly described in the satire of his book, The Praise of Folly. Erasmus called for reform in the Roman Catholic Church. Erasmus could have been a great help to the Reformation, so it seemed, by using the Renaissance in the service of the Reformation.

But a great chasm separated these two men. Luther loved the truth of God's Word as that was revealed to him through his own struggles with the assurance of salvation. Therefore Luther wanted true reformation in the church, which would be a reformation in doctrine and practice. Erasmus cared little about a right knowledge of truth. He simply wanted moral reform in the Roman Catholic Church. He did not want to leave the church, but remained supportive of the Pope.

This fundamental difference points out another difference between the two men. Martin Luther was bound by the Word of God. Therefore the content of the Scripture was of utmost importance to him. But Erasmus did not hold to this same high view of Scripture. Erasmus was a Renaissance rationalist who placed reason above Scripture. Therefore the truth of Scripture was not that important to him.

The two men could not have fellowship with each other, for the two movements which they represented were antithetical to each other. The fundamental differences came out especially in the debate over the freedom of the will.

From 1517 on, the chasm between Luther and Erasmus grew. The more Luther learned about Erasmus, the less he wanted anything to do with him. Melanchthon tried to play the mediator between Luther and Erasmus with no success. But many hated Erasmus because he was so outspoken against the church. These haters of Erasmus tried to discredit him by associating him with Luther, who was outside the church by this time. Erasmus continued to deny this unity, saying he did not know much about the writings of Luther. But as Luther took a stronger stand against the doctrinal abuses of Rome, Erasmus was forced either to agree with Luther or to dissociate himself from Luther. Erasmus chose the latter.

Many factors came together which finally caused Erasmus to wield his pen against Luther. Erasmus was under constant pressure from the Pope and later the king of England to refute the views of Luther. When Luther became more outspoken against Erasmus, Erasmus finally decided to write against him. On September 1, 1524, Erasmus published his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In December of 1525, Luther responded with The Bondage of the Will.

Packer and Johnston call The Bondage of the Will "the greatest piece of theological writing that ever came from Luther's pen."1 Although Erasmus writes with eloquence, his writing cannot compare with that of Luther the theologian. Erasmus writes as one who cares little about the subject, while Luther writes with passion and conviction, giving glory to God. In his work, Luther defends the heart of the gospel over against the Pelagian error as defended by Erasmus. This controversy is of utmost importance.

In this paper, I will summarize both sides of the controversy, looking at what each taught and defended. Secondly, I will examine the biblical approach of each man. Finally, the main issues will be pointed out and the implications of the controversy will be drawn out for the church today.

Erasmus defines free-will or free choice as "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation or turn away from them." By this, Erasmus means that man has voluntary or free power of himself to choose the way which leads to salvation apart from the grace of God.

Erasmus attempts to answer the question how man is saved: Is it the work of God or the work of man according to his free will? Erasmus answers that it is not one or the other. Salvation does not have to be one or the other, for God and man cooperate. On the one hand, Erasmus defines free-will, saying man can choose freely by himself, but on the other hand, he wants to retain the necessity of grace for salvation. Those who do good works by free-will do not attain the end they desire unless aided by God's grace. Therefore, in regard to salvation, man cooperates with God. Both must play their part in order for a man to be saved. Erasmus expresses it this way: "Those who support free choice nonetheless admit that a soul which is obstinate in evil cannot be softened into true repentance without the help of heavenly grace." Also, attributing all things to divine grace, Erasmus states,

And the upshot of it is that we should not arrogate anything to ourselves but attribute all things we have received to divine grace … that our will might be synergos (fellow-worker) with grace although grace is itself sufficient for all things and has no need of the assistance of any human will."

In his work On the Freedom of the Will, Erasmus defends this synergistic view of salvation. According to Erasmus, God and man, nature and grace, cooperate together in the salvation of a man. With this view of salvation, Erasmus tries to steer clear of outright Pelagianism and denies the necessity of human action which Martin Luther defends.

On the basis of an apocryphal passage (Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17), Erasmus begins his defense with the origin of free-will. Erasmus says that Adam, as he was created, had a free-will to choose good or to turn to evil. In Paradise, man's will was free and upright to choose. Adam did not depend upon the grace of God, but chose to do all things voluntarily. The question which follows is, "What happened to the will when Adam sinned; does man still retain this free-will?" Erasmus would answer, "Yes." Erasmus says that the will is born out of a man's reason. In the fall, man's reason was obscured but was not extinguished. Therefore the will, by which we choose, is depraved so that it cannot change its ways. The will serves sin. But this is qualified. Man's ability to choose freely or voluntarily is not hindered.

By this depravity of the will, Erasmus does not mean that man can do no good. Because of the fall, the will is "inclined" to evil, but can still do good. Notice, he says the will is only "inclined" to evil. Therefore the will can freely or voluntarily choose between good and evil. This is what he says in his definition: free-will is "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation." Not only does the human will have power, although a little power, but the will has power by which a man merits salvation.

This free choice of man is necessary according to Erasmus in order for there to be sin. In order for a man to be guilty of sin, he must be able to know the difference between good and evil, and he must be able to choose between doing good and doing evil. A man is responsible only if he has the ability to choose good or evil. If the free-will of man is taken away, Erasmus says that man ceases to be a man.

For this freedom of the will, Erasmus claims to find much support in Scripture. According to Erasmus, when Scripture speaks of "choosing," it implies that man can freely choose. Also, whenever the Scripture uses commands, threats, exhortations, blessings, and cursings, it follows that man is capable of choosing whether or not he will obey.

Erasmus defines the work of man's will by which he can freely choose after the fall. Here he makes distinctions in his idea of a "threefold kind of law" which is made up of the "law of nature, law of works, and law of faith." First, this law of nature is in all men. By this law of nature, men do good by doing to others what they would want others to do to them. Having this law of nature, all men have a knowledge of God. By this law of nature, the will can choose good, but the will in this condition is useless for salvation. Therefore more is needed. The law of works is man's choice when he hears the threats of punishment which God gives. When a man hears these threats, he either continues to forsake God, or he desires God's grace. When a man desires God's grace, he then receives the law of faith which cures the sinful inclinations of his reason. A man has this law of faith only by divine grace.

In connection with this threefold kind of law, Erasmus distinguishes between three graces of God. First, in all men, even in those who remain in sin, a grace is implanted by God. But this grace is infected by sin. This grace arouses men by a certain knowledge of God to seek Him. The second grace is peculiar grace which arouses the sinner to repent. This does not involve the abolishing of sin or justification. But rather, a man becomes "a candidate for the highest grace." By this grace offered to all men, God invites all, and the sinner must come desiring God's grace. This grace helps the will to desire God. The final grace is the concluding grace which completes what was started. This is saving grace only for those who come by their free-will. Man begins on the path to salvation, after which God completes what man started. Along with man's natural abilities according to his will, God works by His grace. This is the synergos, or cooperation, which Erasmus defends.

Erasmus defends the free-will of man with a view to meriting salvation. This brings us to the heart of the matter. Erasmus begins with the premise that a man merits salvation. In order for a man to merit salvation, he cannot be completely carried by God, but he must have a free-will by which he chooses God voluntarily. Therefore, Erasmus concludes that by the exercise of his free-will, man merits salvation with God. When man obeys, God imputes this to his merit. Therefore Erasmus says, "This surely goes to show that it is not wrong to say that man does something…." Concerning the merit of man's works, Erasmus distinguishes with the Scholastics between congruent and condign merit. The former is that which a man performs by his own strength, making him a "fit subject for the gift of internal grace." This work of man removed the barrier which keeps God from giving grace. The barrier removed is man's unworthiness for grace, which God gives only to those who are fit for it. With the gift of grace, man can do works which before he could not do. God rewards these gifts with salvation. Therefore, with the help or aid of the grace of God, a man merits eternal salvation.

Although he says a man merits salvation, Erasmus wants to say that salvation is by God's grace. In order to hold both the free-will of man and the grace of God in salvation, Erasmus tries to show the two are not opposed to each other. He says, "It is not wrong to say that man does something yet attributes the sum of all he does to God as the author." Explaining the relationship between grace and free-will, Erasmus says that the grace of God and the free-will of man, as two causes, come together in one action "in such a way, however, that grace is the principle cause and the will secondary, which can do nothing apart from the principle cause since the principle is sufficient in itself." Therefore, in regard to salvation, God and man work together. Man has a free-will, but this will cannot attain salvation of itself. The will needs a boost from grace in order to merit eternal life.

Erasmus uses many pictures to describe the relationship between works and grace. He calls grace an "advisor," "helper," and "architect." Just as the builder of a house needs the architect to show him what to do and to set him straight when he does something wrong, so also man needs the assistance of God to help him where he is lacking. The free-will of man is aided by a necessary helper: grace. Therefore Erasmus says, "as we show a boy an apple and he runs for it ... so God knocks at our soul with His grace and we willingly embrace it." In this example, we are like a boy who cannot walk. The boy wants the apple, but he needs his father to assist him in obtaining the apple. So also, we need the assistance of God's grace. Man has a free-will by which he can seek after God, but this is not enough for him to merit salvation. By embracing God's grace with his free-will, man merits God's grace so that by his free-will and the help of God's grace he merits eternal life. This is a summary of what Erasmus defends.

Erasmus also deals with the relationship of God's foreknowledge and man's free-will. On the one hand, God does what he wills, but, on the other hand, God's will does not impose anything on man's will, for then man's will would not be free or voluntary. Therefore God's foreknowledge is not determinative, but He simply knows what man will choose. Men deserve punishment from eternity simply because God knows they will not choose the good, but will choose the evil. Man can resist the ordained will of God. The only thing man cannot resist is when God wills in miracles. When God performs some "supernatural" work, this cannot be resisted by men. For example, when Jesus performed a miracle, the man whose sight returned could not refuse to be healed. According to Erasmus, because man's will is free, God's will and foreknowledge depend on man's will except when He performs miracles.

This is a summary of what Erasmus taught in his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In response to this treatise, Luther wrote The Bondage of the Will. We turn to this book of Luther.

Martin Luther gives a thorough defense of the sovereign grace of God over against the "semi-Pelagianism" of Erasmus by going through much of Erasmus' On the Freedom of the Will phrase by phrase. Against the cooperating work of salvation defended by Erasmus, Luther attacks Erasmus at the very heart of the issue. Luther's thesis is that "free-will is a nonentity, a thing consisting of name alone" because man is a slave to sin. Therefore salvation is the sovereign work of God alone.

In the "Diatribe," Luther says, Erasmus makes no sense. It seems Erasmus speaks out of both sides of his mouth. On the one hand, he says that man's will cannot will any good, yet on the other hand, he says man has a free-will. Other contradictions also exist in Erasmus' thought. Erasmus says that man has the power to choose good, but he also says that man needs grace to do good. Opposing Erasmus, Luther rightly points out that if there is free-will, there is no need for grace. Because of these contradictions in Erasmus, Luther says Erasmus "argues like a man drunk or asleep, blurting out between snores, 'Yes,' 'No.' " Not only does this view of Erasmus not make sense, but this is not what Scripture says concerning the will of man and the grace of God.

According to Luther, Erasmus does not prove his point, namely, the idea that man with his free-will cooperates in salvation with God. Throughout his work, Luther shows that Erasmus supports and agrees with the Pelagians. In fact, Erasmus' view is more despicable than Pelagianism because he is not honest and because the grace of God is cheapened. Only a small work is needed in order for a man to merit the grace of God.

Because Erasmus does not take up the question of what man can actually do of himself as fallen in Adam, Luther takes up the question of the ability of man. Here, Luther comes to the heart of his critique of the Diatribe in which he denies free-will and shows that God must be and is sovereign in salvation. Luther's arguments follow two lines: first, he shows that man is enslaved to sin and does not have a free-will; secondly, he shows that the truth of God's sovereign rule, by which He accomplishes His will according to His counsel, is opposed to free-will.

First, Luther successfully defends the thesis that there is no such entity as free-will because the will is enslaved to sin. Luther often says there is no such thing as free-will. The will of man without the grace of God "is not free at all, but is the permanent prisoner and bondslave of evil since it cannot turn itself to good." The free-will lost its freedom in the fall so that now the will is a slave to sin. This means the will can will no good. Therefore man does and wills sin "necessarily." Luther further describes the condition of man's will when he explains a passage from Ezekiel: "It cannot but fall into a worse condition, and add to its sins despair and impenitence unless God comes straightway to its help and calls it back and raises it up by the word of His promise."

Luther makes a crucial distinction in explaining what he means when he says man sins "necessarily." This does not mean "compulsion." A man without the Spirit is not forced, kicking and screaming, to sin but voluntarily does evil. Nevertheless, because man is enslaved to sin, his will cannot change itself. He only wills or chooses to sin of himself. He cannot change this willingness of his: he wills and desires evil. Man is wholly evil, thinking nothing but evil thoughts. Therefore there is no free-will.

Because this is the condition of man, he cannot merit eternal life. The enslaved will cannot merit anything with God because it can do no good. The only thing which man deserves is eternal punishment. By this, Luther also shows that there is no free-will.

In connection with man's merit, Luther describes the true biblical uses of the law. The purpose of the law of God is not to show men how they can merit salvation, but the law is given so that men might see their sinfulness and their own unworthiness. The law condemns the works of man, for when he judges himself according to the law, man sees that he can do no good. Therefore, he is driven to the cross. The law also serves as a guide for what the believer should do. But the law does not say anything about the ability of man to obey it.

Not only should the idea of free-will be rejected because man is enslaved to sin, but also because of who God is and the relationship between God and man. A man cannot act independently of God. Analyzing what Erasmus said, Luther says that God is not God, but He is an idol, because the freedom of man rules. Everything depends on man for salvation. Therefore man can merit salvation apart from God. A God that depends on man is not God.

Denying this horrible view of Erasmus, Luther proclaims the sovereignty of God in salvation. Because God is sovereign in all things and especially in salvation, there is no free-will.

Luther begins with the fact that God alone has a free-will. This means only God can will or not will the law, gospel, sin, and death. God does not act out of necessity, but freely. He alone is independent in all He decrees and does. Therefore man cannot have a free-will by which he acts independently of God, because God is immutable, omnipotent, and sovereign over all. Luther says that God is omnipotent, knowing all. Therefore we do nothing of ourselves. We can only act according to God's infallible, immutable counsel.

The great error of free-willism is that it ascribes divinity to man's free-will. God is not God anymore. If man has a free-will, this implies God is not omnipotent, controlling all of our actions. Free-will also implies that God makes mistakes and changes. Man must then fix the mistakes. Over against this, Luther says there can be no free-will because we are under the "mastery of God." We can do nothing apart from God by our own strength because we are enslaved to sin.

Luther also understands the difficulties which follow from saying that God is sovereign so that all things happen necessarily. Luther states: "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily happens." The problem between God's foreknowledge and man's freedom cannot be completely solved. God sovereignly decrees all things that happen, and they happen as He has decreed them necessarily. Does this mean that when a man sins, he sins because God has decreed that sin? Luther would answer, Yes. But God does not act contrary to what man is. Man cannot will good, but he only seeks after sinful lusts. The nature of man is corrupted, so that he is turned from God. But God works in men and in Satan according to what they are. The sinner is still under the control of the omnipotent God, "which means, since they are evil and perverted themselves, that when they are impelled to action by this movement of Divine omnipotence they do only that which is perverted or evil." When God works in evil men, evil results. But God is not evil. He is good. He does not do evil, but He uses evil instruments. The sin is the fault of those evil instruments and not the fault of God.

Luther asks himself the question, Why then did God let Adam fall so all men have his sin? The sovereignty of God must not be questioned, because God's will is beyond any earthly standard. Nothing is equal to God and His will. Answering the question above, Luther replies, "What God wills is not right because He ought or was bound, so to will, on the contrary, what takes place must be right because He so wills it." This is the hidden mystery of God's absolute sovereignty over all things.

God is sovereign over all things. He is sovereign in salvation. Is salvation a work of God and man? Luther answers negatively. God alone saves. Therefore salvation cannot be based on the merits of men's works. Man's obedience does not obtain salvation, according to Luther. Some become the sons of God "not by carnal birth, nor by zeal for the law, nor by any other human effort, but only by being born of God." Grace does not come by our own effort, but by the grace of Jesus Christ. To deny grace is to deny Jesus Christ. For Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Free-will says that it is the way, the truth, and the life. Therefore free-will denies Jesus Christ. This is a serious error.

God saves by His grace and Spirit in such away that the will is turned by Him. Only when the will is changed can it will and desire the good. Luther describes a struggle between God and Satan. Erasmus says man stands between God and Satan, who are as spectators waiting for man to make his choice. But Luther compares this struggle to a horse having two riders. "If God rides, it wills and goes where God goes…. If Satan rides, it wills and goes where Satan goes." The horse does not have the choice of which rider it wants. We have Satan riding us until God throws him off. In the same way, we are enslaved to sin until God breaks the power of sin. The salvation of a man depends upon the free work of God, who alone is sovereign and able to save men. Therefore this work in the will by God is a radical change whereby the willing of the soul is freed from sin. This beautiful truth stands over against Erasmus' grace, which gives man a booster shot in what he can do of himself.

This truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation is comforting to us. When man trusts in himself, he has no comfort that he is saved. Because man is enslaved to sin and because God is the sovereign, controlling all things according to His sovereign, immutable will, there is no free-will. The free-will of man does not save him. God alone saves.

The battle begins with the fundamental difference separating Luther and Erasmus in regard to the doctrine of Scripture. Erasmus defends the obscurity of Scripture. Basically, Erasmus says man cannot know with certainty many of the things in Scripture. Some things in God's Word are plain, while many are not. He applies the obscurity of Scripture to the controversy concerning the freedom of the will. In the camp of the hidden things of God, which include the hour of our death and when the last judgment will occur, Erasmus places "whether our will accomplishes anything in things pertaining to salvation." Because Scripture is unclear about these things, what one believes about these matters is not important. Erasmus did not want controversy, but he wanted peace. For him, the discussion of the hidden things is worthless because it causes the church to lose her love and unity.

Against this idea of the obscurity of Scripture, Luther defends the perspicuity of Scripture. Luther defines perspicuity as being twofold. The external word itself is clear, as that which God has written for His people. But man cannot understand this word of himself. Therefore Scripture is clear to God's people only by the work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts.

The authority of Scripture is found in God Himself. God's Word must not be measured by man, for this leads to paradoxes, of which Erasmus is a case in point. By saying Scripture is paradoxical, Erasmus denies the authority of God's Word.

Luther does not deny that some passages are difficult to understand. This is not because the Word is unclear or because the work of the Holy Spirit is weak. Rather, we do not understand some passages because of our own weakness.

If Scripture is obscure, then this opposes what God is doing in revelation. Scripture is light which reveals the truth. If it is obscure, then why did God give it to us? According to Luther, not even the difficult to understand doctrines such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the unpardonable sin are obscure. Therefore the issue of the freedom of the will is not obscure. If the Scripture is unclear about the doctrine of the will of man, then this doctrine is not from Scripture.

Because Scripture is clear, Luther strongly attacks Erasmus on this fundamental point. Luther says, "The Scriptures are perfectly clear in their teaching, and that by their help such a defense of our position may be made that our adversaries cannot resist." This is what Luther hoped to show to Erasmus. The teaching of Scripture is fundamental. On this point of perspicuity, Luther has Erasmus by the horns. Erasmus says Scripture is not clear on this matter of the freedom of the will, yet he appeals to the church fathers for support. The church fathers base their doctrine of the free-will on Scripture. On the basis of the perspicuity of Scripture, Luther challenges Erasmus to find even one passage that supports his view of free-will. Luther emphasizes that not one can be found.

Luther also attacks Erasmus when he says what one believes concerning the freedom of the will does not matter. Luther sums up Erasmus' position this way: "In a word, what you say comes to this: that you do not think it matters a scrap what any one believes anywhere, as long as the world is at peace." Erasmus says the knowledge of free-will is useless and non-essential. Over against this, Luther says, "then neither God, Christ, Gospel, faith, nor anything else even of Judaism, let alone Christianity, is left!" Positively, Luther says about the importance of the truth: "I hold that a solemn and vital truth, of eternal consequences, is at stake in the discussion." Luther was willing to defend the truth even to death because of its importance as that which is taught in Scripture.

A word must also be said about the differing views of the interpretation of Scripture. Erasmus was not an exegete. He was a great scholar of the languages, but this did not make him an able exegete. Erasmus does not rely on the Word of God of itself, but he turns to the church fathers and to reason for the interpretation of Scripture. In regard to the passage out of Ecclesiasticas which Erasmus uses, Luther says the dispute there is not over the teaching of Scripture, but over human reason. Erasmus generalizes from a particular case, saying that since a passage mentions willing, this must mean a man has a free-will. In this regard, Luther also says that Erasmus "fashions and refashions the words of God as he pleases." Erasmus was concerned not with what God says in His Word, but with what he wanted God to say.

Not only does Erasmus use his own reason to interpret Scripture, but following in the Roman Catholic tradition he goes back to the church fathers. His work is filled with many quotes from the church fathers' interpretation of different passages. The idea is that the church alone has the authority to interpret Scripture. Erasmus goes so far in this that Luther accuses Erasmus of placing the fathers above the inspired apostle Paul.

In contrast to Erasmus, Luther interprets Scripture with Scripture. Seeing the Word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit, Luther also trusts in the work of the Holy Spirit to interpret that Word. One of the fundamental points of Reformed hermeneutics is that Scripture interprets Scripture. Luther follows this. When Luther deals with a passage, he does not take it out of context as Erasmus does. Instead, he examines the context and checks other passages which use the same words.

Also, Luther does not add figures or devise implications as Erasmus does. But rather, Luther sticks to the simple and plain meaning of Scripture. He says, "Everywhere we should stick to just the simple, natural meaning of the words, as yielded by the rules of grammar and the habits of speech that God has created among men." In the controversy over the bondage of the will, both the formal and material principles of the Reformation were at stake.

Now we must examine some of the important passages for each man. This is a difficult task because they both refer to so many passages. We must content ourselves with looking at those which are fundamental for the main points of the controversy.

Showing the weakness of his view of Scripture, Erasmus begins with a passage from an apocryphal book: Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17. Erasmus uses this passage to show the origin of the free will and that the will continues to be free after the fall.

Following this passage, Erasmus looks at many passages from the Old Testament to prove that man has a free-will. He turns to Genesis 4:6, 7, which records God speaking to Cain after he offered his displeasing sacrifice to God. Verse 7 says, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." Erasmus says that God sets before Cain a reward if he chooses the good. But if he chooses the evil, he will be punished. This implies that Cain has a will which can overcome evil and do the good.

From here, Erasmus looks at different passages using the word "choose." He says Scripture uses the word "choose" because man can freely choose. This is the only way it makes sense.

Erasmus also looks at many passages which use the word "if" in the Old Testament and also the commands of the Old Testament. For example, Isaiah 1:19,20 and 21:12 use the words "if … then." These conditions in Scripture imply that a man can do these things. Deuteronomy 30:14 is an example of a command. In this passage, Israel is commanded to love God with all their heart and soul. This command was given because Moses and the people had it in them to obey. Erasmus comes to these conclusions by implication.

Using a plethora of New Testament texts, Erasmus tries to support the idea of the freedom of the will. Once again, Erasmus appeals to those texts which speak of conditions. John 14:15 says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Also, in John 15:7 we read, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." These passages imply that man is able to fulfill the conditions by his free-will.

Remarkably, Erasmus identifies Paul as "the champion of free choice." Referring to passages in which Paul exhorts and commands, Erasmus says that this implies the ability to obey. An example is I Corinthians 9:24,25: "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." Man is able to obey this command because he has a free-will.

These texts can be placed together because Luther responds to them as a whole. Luther does treat many of these texts separately, but often comes back to the same point. Luther's response to Genesis 4:7 applies to all of the commands and conditions to which Erasmus refers: "Man is shown, not what he can do, but what he ought to do." Similarly, Luther responds to Deuteronomy 30:19: "It is from this passage that I derive my answer to you: that by the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do; that is, that he may know sin, not that he may believe that he has any strength." The exhortations and commands of the New Testament given through the apostle Paul are not written to show what we can do, but rather, after the gospel is preached, they encourage those justified and saved to live in the Spirit.

From these passages, Erasmus also taught that man merited salvation by his obedience or a man merited punishment by his disobedience, all of which was based on man's ability according to his free-will. Erasmus jumps from reward to merit. He does this in the conditional phrases of Scripture especially. But Luther says that merit is not proved from reward. God uses rewards in Scripture to exhort us and threaten us so that the godly persevere. Rewards are not that which a man merits.

The heart of the battle of the biblical texts is found in their treatment of passages from the book of Romans, especially Romans 9. Here, Erasmus treats Romans 9 as a passage which seems to oppose the freedom of the will but does not.

Erasmus begins his treatment of Romans 9 by considering the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. He treats this in connection with what Romans 9:18 says, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardeneth." To interpret this passage, Erasmus turns to Jerome, who says, "God hardens when he does not at once punish the sinner and has mercy as soon as he invites repentance by means of afflictions." God's hardening and mercy are the results of what man does. God has mercy "on those who recognize the goodness of God and repent…." Also, this hardening is not something which God does, but something which Pharaoh did by not repenting. God was longsuffering to Pharaoh, not punishing him immediately, during which Pharaoh hardened his heart. God simply gave the occasion for the hardening of his heart. Therefore the blame can be placed on Pharaoh.

Although Erasmus claims to take the literal meaning of the passage, Luther is outraged at this interpretation. Luther objects:

Positively, Luther explains this hardening of the heart of Pharaoh. God does this, therefore Pharaoh's heart is necessarily hardened. But God does not do something which is opposed to the nature of Pharaoh. Pharoah is enslaved to sin. When he hears the word of God through Moses which irritates his evil will, Pharaoh's heart is hardened. Luther explains it this way:

Once again, Luther objects. Luther defends the necessity of consequence to what God decrees. Luther says, "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily takes place." Therefore, in regard to Jacob and Esau, they did not attain their positions by their own free-will. Romans 9 emphasizes that they were not yet born and that they had not yet done good or evil. Without any works of obedience or disobedience, the one was master and the other was the servant. Jacob was rewarded not on the basis of anything he had done. Jacob was loved and Esau was hated even before the world began. Jacob loved God because God loved him. Therefore the source of salvation is not the free-will of man, but God's eternal decree. Paul is not the great champion of the freedom of the will.

In defense of the literal meaning of Romans 9:21-23, Luther shows that these verses oppose free-will as well. Luther examines the passage in the context of what Paul is saying. The emphasis in the earlier verses is not man, but what God does. He is sovereign in salvation. Here also, the emphasis is the potter. God is sovereign, almighty, and free. Man is enslaved to sin and acts out of necessity according to all God decrees. Luther shows that this is the emphasis of Romans 9 with sound exegetical work.

After refuting the texts to which Erasmus refers, Luther continues to show that Scripture denies the freedom of the will and teaches the sovereignty of God in salvation. He begins with Romans 1:18 which says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Luther says this means all men are ungodly and are unrighteous. Therefore, all deserve the wrath of God. The best a man can do is evil. Referring to Romans 3:9, Luther proves the same thing. Both Jews and Greeks are all under sin. They will and do nothing but evil. Man has no power to seek after good because there is none that doeth good (Ps. 14:3). Therefore, men are "ignorant of and despise God! Here is unbelief, disobedience, sacrilege, blasphemy towards God, cruelty and mercilessness towards one's neighbors and love of self in all things of God and man." Luther's conclusion to the matter is this: man is enslaved to sin.

Man cannot obtain salvation by his works. Romans 3:20 says that by the works of the law no man can be justified in God's sight. It is impossible for a man to merit salvation by his works. Salvation must be the sovereign work of God.

Luther thunders against free-will in connection with Romans 3:21-16 which proclaims salvation by grace alone through faith.58 Free-will is opposed to faith. These are two different ways of salvation. Luther shows that a man cannot be saved by his works, therefore it must be by faith in Jesus Christ. Justification is free, of grace, and without works because man possesses no worthiness for it.

Finally, we notice that Luther points out the comprehensive terms of the apostle Paul to show that there is no free-will in man. All are sinners. There is none that is righteous, and none that doeth good. Paul uses many others also. Therefore, justification and salvation are without works and without the law.

Over against the idea of free-will stands the clear teaching of Scripture. Luther clearly exegetes God's Word to show this. In summary, the truth of predestination denies the free-will of man. Because salvation is by grace and faith, salvation is not by works. Faith and grace are of no avail if salvation is by the works of man. Also, the only thing the law works is wrath. The law displays the unworthiness, sinfulness, and guilt of man. As children of Adam we can do no good. Luther argues along these lines to show that a free-will does not exist in man. Salvation is by grace alone.

Luther is not interested in abstract theological concepts. He does not take up this debate with Erasmus on a purely intellectual level. The main issue is salvation: how does God save? Luther himself defines the issue on which the debate hinges:

So it is not irreligious, idle, or superfluous, but in the highest degree wholesome and necessary, for a Christian to know whether or not his will has anything to do in matters pertaining to salvation…. This is the hinge on which our discussion turns, the crucial issue between us.

Luther finds it necessary to investigate from Scripture what ability the will of man has and how this is related to God and His grace. If one does not know this, he does not know Christianity. Luther brings this against Erasmus because he shows no interest in the truth regarding how it is that some are saved.

Although the broad issue of the debate is how God saves, the specific issue is the sovereignty of God in salvation. The main issue for Luther is that man does not have a free-will by which he merits eternal life, but God sovereignly saves those whom He has chosen.

Luther is pursuing the question, "Is God, God?" This means, is God the omnipotent who reigns over all and who sovereignly saves, or does He depend on man? If God depends on man for anything, then He is not God. Therefore Luther asks the question of himself: Who will try to reform his life, believe, and love God? His answer, "Nobody." No man can do this of himself. He needs God. "The elect, who fear God, will be reformed by the Holy Spirit; the rest will perish unreformed." Luther defends this truth so vigorously because it is the heart of the gospel. God is the sovereign God of salvation. If salvation depends on the works of man, he cannot be saved.

Certain implications necessarily follow from the views of salvation defended by both men. First, we must consider the implications which show the falsehood of Erasmus' view of salvation.

When Erasmus speaks of merit, he is really speaking as a Pelagian. This was offensive to Erasmus because he specifically claimed that he was not a Pelagian. But Luther rightly points out that Erasmus says man merits salvation. According to the idea of merit, man performs an act separate from God, which act is the basis of salvation. He deserves a reward. This is opposed to grace. Therefore, if merit is at all involved, man saves himself. This makes Erasmus no different from the Pelagians except that the Pelagians are honest. Pelagians honestly confess that man merits eternal life. Erasmus tries to give the appearance that he is against the Pelagians although he really is a Pelagian. Packer and Johnston make this analysis:

Another implication of the synergistic view of salvation held to by Erasmus is that God is not God. Because salvation depends upon the free-will of man according to Erasmus, man ascribes divinity to himself. God is not God because He depends upon man. Man himself determines whether or not he will be saved. Therefore the study of soteriology is not the study of what God does in salvation, but soteriology is a study of what man does with God to deserve eternal life.

This means God's grace is not irresistible, but man can reject the grace of God. Man then has more power than God. God watches passively to see what man will do.

Finally, a serious implication of the view of Erasmus is that he denies salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone. In his Diatribe, Erasmus rarely mentions Jesus Christ. This shows something is wrong. This does follow from what Erasmus says. The emphasis for Erasmus is what man must do to be saved and not on what God has done in Jesus Christ. Therefore Jesus Christ is not the only way of salvation and is not that important.

Over against the implications of Erasmus' view are the orthodox implications of Luther's view. God is sovereign in salvation. God elects His people, He sent Jesus Christ, and reveals Jesus Christ only to His people. It is God who turns the enslaved wills of His people so that they seek after Him. Salvation does not depend upon the work of man in any sense.

The basis of salvation is Jesus Christ alone. Because man is enslaved to sin, He must be turned from that sin. He must be saved from that sin through the satisfaction of the justice of God. A man needs the work of Jesus Christ on the cross to be saved. A man needs the new life of Jesus Christ in order to inherit eternal life. The merits of man do not save because he merits nothing with God. A man needs the merits of Jesus Christ for eternal life. A man needs faith by which he is united to Christ.

The source of this salvation is election. God saves only those whom He elects. Those who receive that new life of Christ are those whom God has chosen. God is sovereign in salvation.

Because God is sovereign in salvation, His grace cannot be resisted. Erasmus says that the reason some do not believe is because they reject the grace which God has given to them. Luther implies that God does not show grace to all men. Instead, He saves and shows favor only to those who are His children. In them, God of necessity, efficaciously accomplishes His purpose.

Because man cannot merit eternal life, saving faith is not a work of man by which he merits anything with God. Works do not justify a man. Salvation is the work of God alone in Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift of God whereby we are united to Jesus Christ and receive the new life found in Him. Even the knowledge and confidence as the activity of faith are the gifts of faith.

Finally, only with this view of salvation that God is sovereign can a man have comfort that he will be saved. Because God is sovereign in salvation and because His counsel is immutable, we cannot fall from the grace of God. He preserves those who are His children. Erasmus could not have this comfort because he held that man determines his own salvation.

Although this controversy happened almost five hundred years ago, it is significant for the church today. The error of "semi-Pelagianism" is still alive in the church today. Much of the church world sides with Erasmus today, even among those who claim to be "Reformed." If a "Reformed" or Lutheran church denies what Luther says and sides with Erasmus, they despise the reformation of the church in the sixteenth century. They might as well go back to the Roman Catholic Church.

This controversy is important today because many deny that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation. A man can worship heathen gods and be saved. This follows from making works the basis of salvation. Over against this error, Martin Luther proclaimed the sovereignty of God in salvation. He proclaimed Jesus Christ as the only way of salvation. We must do the same.

The error of Pelagianism attacks the church in many different forms. We have seen that in the history of the Protestant Reformed Churches. The sovereignty of God in salvation has been attacked by the errors of common grace and a conditional covenant. Over against these errors, some in the church world have remained steadfast by the grace of God. God does not love all. Nor does He show favor to all men in the preaching of gospel. Erasmus himself said that God showed grace to all men and God does not hate any man. The Arminians said the same thing at the time of the Synod of Dordt. Yet, men who defend common grace claim to be Reformed. They are not.

Also, in this synergistic view of salvation, we see the principles of the bilateral, conditional covenant view which is in many "Reformed" churches. If God and man work together in salvation, then the covenant must be a pact in which both God and man must hold up each one's end of the agreement. Over against this we must proclaim the sovereignty of God in salvation especially in regard to the covenant. The covenant is not conditional and bilateral. God works unconditionally and unilaterally in the covenant of grace.

Finally, we must apply the truth of the sovereignty of God defended by Luther to ourselves. We could say there is a Pelagian in all of us. We know God sovereignly saves, but we often show by our practice that we proudly want to sneak a few of our works in the back door. We must depend upon God for all things.

May this truth which Martin Luther defended, the truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation, be preserved in the church.

Our Lord Jesus followed a plan set before the foundations of the world, a plan of His device. We don't have the luxury of knowing what God's plan is.

Regardless, Christ still had to execute this plan. Freely.

Christ was not subject to the weakness of the flesh.

Sure He was. He was hungry, tired, pursued by critical Pharisees who disbelieved His teaching Source. Christ was subject to these external temptations just as we are. He was like us in all ways, except actual sin.

He was righteous from the beginning fully capable of doing what is right.

As is the regenerated man after Baptism.

Christ, being God, was empowered and led by the Holy Spirit throughout His life on earth. We cannot make this claim.

After we were born from above, we also are empowered by the Spirit, if we are completely open to the Will of God. This requires humility and obedience.

Adam and his descendant are creatures of God. Christ is God.

Which would make it impossible for Christ to sin. This is a paradox, except that Jesus enfleshed a human nature that is similar to what Adam possessed before his fall. Not only is Christ an example of what can be, He provides the ability to become ANOTHER Christ by adoption.

Christ had “free will” but that “free will” was used to follow the ONE perfect plan of God the Father set before the foundation of the world.

You don't attach much value to the Passion of Christ, then, do you? What you are forgeting is that God's plan of the salvation of man and its execution of Christ's Passion and death occured all within that one moment of the present called eternity, for God. For GOD, the plan and its execution occured simultaneously. The Son's "yes" came instantly upon the utterance of the plan by the Father. God does not unwillingly bind Himself to the "plan"! God's foreknowledge does not erase His Will, because His "foreknowledge" and Will occur at the same moment. Christ's Passion is the greatest expression of love - it was not a mere part of the plan in which Christ had no choice. He was highly exalted BECAUSE of His obedience.

Was there ever a choice in the matter or was it all predestined?

God can do what He desires. He was not bound to save mankind or to save us in a particular manner.

Any deviation from God’s will would have been sin and God (Christ) could not sin.

How can God the Son deviate from God the Father's Will? There is only ONE Divine will! While there are three Persons, there is only one God, one Will. If Christ would have chose differently, it would have been God's will! Don't you realize that Christ is the manifestation of the Father? ANYTHING that Christ did was GOD'S will, if we continue to say that Christ was God. Thus, nothing Christ could do would be considered sinful - against the Divine Will. However, this Christological relationship was not fully developed for many years after the Scriptures were written. We can make such inferences only based on this Tradition as expounded in the Creeds and Counciliar declarations made 1500 years ago.

We can go to Nineveh the easy way or the hard way, but we will still ("freely") go to Nineveh.

Over the course of our lives, we will realize that God is moving us to fulfill His own will - but He does this in time based on our own free will choices during the moment of decision. God's Will be done, but it doesn't follow that man's will will not be done.

Regards

If that is the answer, than why doesn't God's infinite sacrifice work for everyone? If God desires that all men be saved, and if Christ died for the sin of the WORLD, then there must be another factor involved in determining who goes to heaven/hell - a factor that God allows to exist. This, we call free will of men.

Such is the nature of election. If God had wanted to elect everyone, He would have. We agree that He didn't elect everyone. I say, therefore, God could not have wanted all men to be saved, or else He is a weak God. In a similar way, if God allows men to snatch themselves out of His hand, then God wasn't strong enough to accomplish what He wanted in terms of the most important thing to humans. It seems that your side believes that to God, it is much more important that man be free to kill himself than it is for His children to be saved.

In the way you seem to be speaking of it, the extra factor (man's free will) is actually the deciding factor in salvation. Man decides his own destiny using his free will. Our disagreement is that I do not believe man has "enough" goodness on his own to make the right decision, you apparently do. You can say that God gives all the help you want, but under your theology, man still makes the final decision. Free will, in the way you are using the term, cannot be free if God controls.

[On why Christ would go to the cross if it was unnecessary:] For love. God wasn't required to do any such thing as die. He could have merely came down, waved His hand, and said "all men are forgiven". WHY does God "have" to die?? Who is forcing God to die on the cross but love?

That is my point, God COULD have waived His hand IF it would have worked, but He didn't. How in the world does it show love to us for Him to die if it wasn't necessary? And the quote you must be thinking of does not apply. If I said to my wife "I love you honey, I'm doing this for you", and then jumped off a building, would that really be showing love for my wife? That is what you seem to be asking me to believe Jesus did. If Jesus didn't HAVE to die to save us, then He committed blind suicide. I conclude that Christ gave His life FOR us because it was the only way.

He didn't give us Commandments for the express purpose of their being broken and disobeyed!

Well. maybe not the expressed purpose, but I would still say it was one purpose of them. I'll borrow one of your own types of arguments and ask why would God give a set of Commandments He knew no one could keep to His standards? A major reason must have been to show us this was not the way to heaven.

It is NOT God's "Will" that sin exists - He makes goodness come from it, but it is illogical that God desires sin to exist for its own sake. It is a side effect of man's free will.

No one said God wills that sin exist for its own sake or for no reason, but since there is a reason, I still say God wills it. It is immaterial if it is categorized as a side effect of men or not, it exists, God is in full control, so He willed it.

To believe that God releases control is to place God into time, awaiting humans to make decisions, or forcing them to make the decisions He wants them to make!

But you have already said that God uses His foreknowledge of man's decisions to make some of His decisions. That is releasing control. If God sees that a man will choose 'A', then God will choose 'B'. If God really was in control, He would choose 'B' independently and then make sure that 'A' would make the corresponding "choice".

FK: "Calvinists believe that man has free will."

That's rhetoric. A Calvinist does not believe in freedom of choice. An unregenerated man can ONLY choose evil, while the regenerated man can ONLY choose good, according to Harley. This is not free will, this is a bound will.

From Harley's description and my agreement, it is clear that we see the concept of free will very differently from you. That is true. However, while we would say that an unregenerated man cannot choose good in God's eyes, NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE on our side has ever said that a regenerated man can only choose good. A nickel says that Harley and I together can put up two good examples why that is impossible. :)

But look at our differences on the issue of freedom of choice. We would say that on the side of "good" choices, that man does not have the capability to make them independently of God. Your side disagrees, and says that man IS "good" enough to make good choices, with help BUT STILL, independently of God (wounded vs. total depravity). Where is each side placing its faith concerning salvation? In the case of "bad" choices, I would imagine that both sides are very close.

But God's foreknowledge of our actions doesn't make God dependent on man - He is able to plan accordingly, simultaneously, to enable man to make what is a free will choice for him, done the way God desires.

I don't see how that can be. The second you say "plan accordingly", whether outside of time or not, that means God is dependent because God's plan would have been different BUT FOR man's decisions. The only way out would be to say that God's plan is not implemented in full because man's decisions necessarily deviate from what God would have planned had He been in control. (You said that God only gives us the tools to do what He wants, but of course, that doesn't always work out, so therefore the plan God would have made without man's input is thwarted.)

It was their [fallen angels] free will choice to NOT follow God - which God foresaw but not desire or ordain. IF God created an evil being, then God IS the author of evil, correct?

God created an angel, knowing full well this angel would later become satan. If God did not desire or ordain this, then why did He do it? The millisecond after satan became satan, God could have crushed him like a bug, but He didn't. Why not, if He did not desire or ordain satan's existence? To answer your question, it depends on what you mean by "evil being". If you mean a being equivalent to satan in his present state, then I would agree. However, if evil is the absence of God, then all of us are born in that state, and God creates all of us, so ...

It is His will that evil exists, despite that He did not create it or desires its existence. God is pure holiness. He does not desire the existence of evil - accept in that it enable man to retain free will.

Jo Kus from above - "It is NOT God's "Will" that sin exists ..." Well, does God desire the existence of evil or not? Your view here is rather encompassing. :) Another issue I see cropping up is that we see the concept of "ordaining" differently. I would say that all that God wills, He ordains. Do you disagree?

TBC ...

After reading your whole reply, I believe you still misunderstand something vital to this conversation that we do share in common, namely, that man can do NOTHING of salutary value without God. Jesus said "I am the vine, you are the branches", a perfectly fitting analogy to describe our ability without Him, our Source of Life. Many of your arguments presume that I am only emphasizing one side, man's free will, at the expense of God's necessary succour that man requires absolutely to come to faith in our Savior. Catholics do not believe we can do anything without the Lord that is pleasing in His eyes.

If God had wanted to elect everyone, He would have.

UNLESS God also has another will that logically would make BOTH "desires" impossible to fulfill completely! "Can God make a rock that He cannot pick up"? Can God save all men if all men are to have free will? In the latter question, we must hold BOTH as true, despite our inability to completely solve this mystery. Refusing one side of the equation is an attempt to rationalize and deify one's own intellect - the heresy of Rationalism. We are not about to go down the road paved by Kant, are we? Remember, the Scriptures are the Word of God, even if we don't understand them fully, we must not deny its dictates - that God desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

In the way you seem to be speaking of it, the extra factor (man's free will) is actually the deciding factor in salvation.

This will is maleable by the ever-present graces offered by God - not by our own intellect and desires. Thus, it is incorrect to assume that God has no role to play BECAUSE of man's free will. Quite the opposite. We absolutely require God's sanctifying grace to move our will to please Him.

Free will, in the way you are using the term, cannot be free if God controls.

Free will is not free if there is no choice. When something becomes a necessity, it is not free. Are you making a free will choice when someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to do something? No, your are being coerced.

How in the world does it show love to us for Him to die if it wasn't necessary? And the quote you must be thinking of does not apply. If I said to my wife "I love you honey, I'm doing this for you", and then jumped off a building, would that really be showing love for my wife?

"There is no greater love than this, that a man die for his friends". IF your death was vicarious sacrifice, then it WOULD be an incredible act of self-giving. Surely, you are aware by now that love = giving of yourself?

If Jesus didn't HAVE to die to save us, then He committed blind suicide. I conclude that Christ gave His life FOR us because it was the only way.

Tsk, tsk. You make God the Father out to be a blood-thirsty tyrant, rather than a loving Father. Christ obeyed the Father's Will to the end. You call Christ's death suicide, but it is ultimate trust in His Father's love.

I would still say it was one purpose of them. I'll borrow one of your own types of arguments and ask why would God give a set of Commandments He knew no one could keep to His standards?

Laws are meant to be kept - regardless of another's evil intent on breaking them. Society sets moral standards that are meant to be followed for the good of all. And yet, people break those laws. Hmm, let's just get rid of the legislative branch of the government...

A major reason must have been to show us this was not the way to heaven.

I just finished reading the first 35 verses of Psalm 119. I don't find your concept of the Law in Scriptures, but rather see the Law as a great gift given to man...

It is immaterial if it is categorized as a side effect of men or not, it exists, God is in full control, so He willed it.

I think it would be more proper to say that sin is NOT an existence, but a lack of an existence, namely, good. Thus, God did not create on non-existence. At least that is the concept that the Greek and Latin Fathers have taught from 1500-1700 years ago. Again, we are probably dealing with varying "will's" or "desires" of God.

If God sees that a man will choose 'A', then God will choose 'B'. If God really was in control, He would choose 'B' independently and then make sure that 'A' would make the corresponding "choice".

Or we can say that God foresees what it would take for a man to choose "A" and place the correct circumstances in man's path to choose "A".

NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE on our side has ever said that a regenerated man can only choose good.

I was quoting Harley at the time. I'd have to search to find that exact post. Perhaps you can mail him and ask for a clarification.

We would say that on the side of "good" choices, that man does not have the capability to make them independently of God.

There are differences between "morally good deeds" and "God pleasing deeds". They are sometimes mutually exclusive - such as the Pharisees and their "morally good deeds". Man doesn't necessarily need God to do "morally good deeds", but to perform ONE good and salutary act worthwhile and meritorious in God's eyes absolutely requires God's graces. "For without me, you can do nothing good".

Your side disagrees, and says that man IS "good" enough to make good choices, with help BUT STILL, independently of God (wounded vs. total depravity). Where is each side placing its faith concerning salvation?

This is a perfect example of the caricature of the Catholic position I have described in the introduction of this post. See my immediately preceding response for clarification.

The second you say "plan accordingly", whether outside of time or not, that means God is dependent because God's plan would have been different BUT FOR man's decisions. The only way out would be to say that God's plan is not implemented in full because man's decisions necessarily deviate from what God would have planned had He been in control. (You said that God only gives us the tools to do what He wants, but of course, that doesn't always work out, so therefore the plan God would have made without man's input is thwarted.)

I am pressed for time, so I will try to answer this quickly. Forgive me if it is not precise. God has a particular will for man. How man and God interact, I must humbly say this is a mystery of faith that man's rational thought will never grasp upon. Any system that attempts to explain how God and man interact is bound to run into difficulties in explanation. What is important is that we do not ignore parts of the faith so as to rationalize it. And that is what I see happening by denying man's activity or denying that God does not desire all men to be saved because it doesn't place God in a box of one's intellect...

Regards

FK: "In God's plan He withholds or withdraws grace from some and then they are left only to their sin nature, meaning they will sin. God ordained that, but He did not author the sin itself. That was done by man, even if he had no independent ability to avoid it."

God withholds grace not knowing what a man will do with grace given Him makes God just? Is God randomly choosing the elect?

I'm sorry, I don't understand your first question or how it comes from what I said. God does nothing randomly.

When someone ordains something, they are creating it, authoring it. The moment you say "God ordained sin", you are saying that God authored sin. You can't have it both ways. Either God does NOT ordain sin, man does, or God DOES ordain sin, and He is responsible for man's sinning.

OOPS, I should have stuck this part in with the other post, sorry. Surrounding the crucifixion was a multitude of sins. If God ordained none of them, then man was in control? Is this right? Now I may see why you cannot believe that the crucifixion was necessarily the only way. Since man was in control, God looked down the corridor, saw that man would crucify the Son, and ordered His plan accordingly. What would have happened had God seen that man would not have crucified Jesus? God would have been forced to come up with another method of salvation. Therefore, you're saying that with man in control, the crucifixion must not have been the only way.

FK: "If God actually plans differently than He otherwise would have, because of man, then that necessitates a change based on foreknowledge."

That is all speculation, I suppose. Who can say what sort of options move around in the mind of God or how He plans things such as that?

I know we touch on this in the other post, but I would say we can know that the plans would be different because our ways are not God's ways.

Is God's will bound by His foreknowledge???

Saying that everything happens simultaneously renders such a good question moot, and you know I don't like that. :) My answer would be that God's foreknowledge is bound by His will. To me, it seems that the only way we can possibly understand this is to say that God willed first. His foreknowledge is the box score of His will. This can only be true if God is truly in control. If, OTOH, God molds His will around the decisions of men, then God's will would be bound by His foreknowledge. Of course I hold to the former.

And why would God withhold grace from us, knowing full well we need it to be saved - UNLESS we reject it? To say God purposely withholds grace from an unelect people who might have followed Him otherwise makes God a just God?

God withholds from whom He will withhold. His will alone determines who gets grace and who does not. He is the potter. That He withholds from anyone does make Him a just God. I don't understand your speculation on who "would have" come to God with grace. There must be a certain level of grace whereby everyone would come to God, right? But God doesn't give that to everyone, so in that sense He withholds from everyone who doesn't make it.

God does not withhold Himself from anyone whom He foresees would come to repentance due to His graces given them. He is a just and merciful God who deeply desires our love.

Here is another example of God's dependence on man. God foresees man's exercise of his free will, and then God is bound not to withhold. Under your view, man steers God's will.

Yes, God ordains His elect. ... Regardless of HOW God decides, He certainly DOES predestine the elect and ordains that they be saved without losing any.

OK, great! I did think you believed in single predestination.

Sadly for us, we don't know who is on that list right now!!

God never said I couldn't repeat this, so, He actually gave me a redacted version of the list! I could show it to you if you want. :)

Who named the animals in the Garden? Who was given the command to be fruitful and multiply (to create)? Who was made in the image and likeness of God? Yes, God is in control in that He has already seen our choice.

Since it happened before the fall, God named the animals through Adam. God creates all people through their parents. I don't think God is in control because He knows our choices, He is in control because He does the work that is good. Earlier, you used the example of a football game when you argued that knowing the outcome would NOT mean that the person was in control of the outcome of the game.

When God does not abide in man, He is spiritually dead, but this doesn't mean that the man is beyond any possibility of doing a morally good deed. We should distinguish between doing a good deed and doing a pleasing deed in God's eyes.

Good idea. If you make that distinction, then we probably agree on this. The question I would have surrounds "morally". Is there such a thing as "man's morality" vs. "God's morality"?

Thanks for the ping. Yes, the services of Holy Week are very moving -- even if one is only able to understand the liturgical movement. If one is able to understand the hymnology and Scriptural readings fully, it is infinitely more moving.

After Matins of Holy Friday, at which the 12 Passion Gospels are read (our service took about 2 1/2 hours, and we abbreviated it a fair amount), our priest told us the story of having one of his parishioners being amused at the water fountain at work some years back. She overheard a Protestant colleague complaining that at their Good Friday service, their preacher had insisted on reading the entire story of the Crucifixion from the Gospel of Mark. We couldn't help but chuckle out loud -- as you would, too, if you had just heard the 12 appointed accounts from all four Gospels read.

An interesting point that he made was that these extensive public readings of the Scripture appointed in the Orthodox Church were terribly important in the days before the printing press. (If the Holy Week services are served fully, the book of Psalms, all four Gospels and the book of Acts would be read in their entirety in church.)

This is of course commonsense. His truly interesting point, though, was that he felt that in the modern age, the public reading of Scripture has become more important than it has been since those pre-printing press days. We in the 21st c. are so married to our TV and computer screens that we read less and less (and chatter more and more on-line about what little we do read.) I thought it was an insightful point...

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