Posted on 12/10/2005 9:41:54 AM PST by sionnsar
I have recently read some things on the blogo-world where Christians are actually condemned to Hell for venerating objects within the context of worship. Of course, it comes from many who claim the Reformed Tradition, almost in an iconographic way. To make such rash judgments about Christians who would give honour to the "holy place" of worship by a bow or a bending of the knee is simply silly. To make the claim that Christians in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox or Anglican Communions are damned to Hell because of this is not helpful in light of what others are doing to them in their own contexts. I find it odd that there were all sorts of "heavenly symbols" in the Temple and on the vestments of the OT priests that were commanded by God to be there and yet these establishments follow the giving of the Second Commandment. Do Christians follow the Temple or the 'Synagogue' model of worship and is this even the right question to be asking? It's interesting that the Second Commandment states "that ANYTHING in heaven or earth" should not be made and yet all sorts of "heavenly beings" are within the Temple. Then we have the Temple and the "icons" in the Holy of Holies. Is this really something to condemn fellow Christians for? Is it really a violation of the Second Commandment?
At the Second Council of Nicaea (Seventh Ecumenical Council) - 787 A.D the Council said,
We decree with full precision and care that, like the figure of the honored and life-giving cross, the revered and holy images, whether painted or made of mosaic or of other suitable material, are to be exposed in the holy churches of God, on sacred instruments and vestments, on walls and panels, in houses and by public ways; these are the images of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, and of Our Lady without blemish, the holy God-bearer, and of the revered angels, and of any of the saintly holy men.I think the below article on this issue makes more sense than the common "Protestant" condemnation that sends those who disagree to Hell. I have never thought of anything other than the worship of God by any veneration given to the altar, cross, or priest in worship. We cross ourselves in our family, have icons in our home, (large advent wreath now) crosses, crucifixes, statues of saints, and all other sorts or Christian Tradition and we have never worshiped one of these things nor given them the honour that is due to God alone. When I deacon in worship and read the Gospel I cross it and kiss it after the proclamation "This is the Gospel of the Lord." I have never set my will to worship these holy things. Worship is an act of the will and an informed conviction that worship is only to God our Father through our Lord Jesus Christ. This article's point here makes a lot more sense than the broad condemnations that one often finds is being attributed to non-Protestant denominations.
So, for the veneration of images to violate the second commandment, it would have to: 1. Be an image of some type, 2. We would have to bow to it, 3. We would bow to it in order to serve it, 4. And to serve it as a god, to supersede God. Thus, it would turn into worship and break the second commandment. Veneration of the Saints through their images only applies to 2 of the 4 qualifications, thus it is not worship of the Saint or the Icon, nor does it break the second commandment. It seems the real concern of those who hesitate at this point is that they are afraid that if they bow to an Icon and kiss it, that they might find themselves someday falling into worship rather than just veneration and honor. Like one day they would wake up and realize that all this time they had been worshiping Mary instead of just giving her honor. The truth of the matter is that you simply cannot accidently worship an Icon. Worship is intentionally giving veneration to a god. As long as that god is the God, then you have nothing to worry about. No one can accidentally worship a Saint. Worship is a purposefull activity and you do it on purpose and with intent.The whole article is here. It is a sad day that when brothers, who disagree, over something like this would begin condemning souls to eternal perdition just to let those who disagree with them on other controversial issues know that they are not as bad as those of us who have pictures of Jesus or statues of our favourite saints, crosses or crucifixes in our homes or churches. Can we have a more intelligent and Christian dicussion of these things? Is this now the measure of "Reformed" orthodoxy?
"Just don't shave. Nothing can be easier, -- it's a natural thing."
The beard is white. Shaved I look 15 years younger and we Greeks are nothing if not vain! :)
As I recall, Nestorius was from Alexandria, and Arius was as well, if remember correctly.......
Arius was a Lybian, I think. He learned his stuff in Antioch and was at least at one point condemned in Alexandria. Nestorius was a Syrian and his big adversary was Cyril of Alexandria.
Early Christians died for their faith actually feeling honored. How many modern-day Christians would be honored to do the same?
I stand corrected...my whole point is most heresies didn't come from the Greeks.....:)
"I stand corrected...my whole point is most heresies didn't come from the Greeks.....:)"
Well...probably the majority did...because we're the most holy! :)
Don't be silly. We read it and practice it. We don't light candles to it, or bow down and ask it to intercede for us, or say 150 chants in a row to it, or any of the other practices that (rightly or wrongly) cause Catholics etc. to be accused of idolatry.
The honest Catholic will concede that, from a certain perspective, some of their practices certainly LOOK like idolatry to an outside observer, and will cite ecumenical councils in defense of their position that they are not -- indeed that's exactly why the councils addressed the issue. But Protestantism's use of the Bible doesn't even come CLOSE. That's just a silly accusation.
You: Don't be silly. We read it and practice it. We don't light candles to it, or bow down and ask it to intercede for us, or say 150 chants in a row to it, or any of the other practices that (rightly or wrongly) cause Catholics etc. to be accused of idolatry.
Nowhere in this thread did I define idolatry of the Bible as burning candles to it or chanting to it or bowing down to it. Idolatry is a spiritual attitude to an object. That object becomes opaque--no longer translucent to the transcendence of the Divinity we call God. The greatest idolatry occurs in the mind without any bodily movement at all. Idolatry is an act of the mind, not the body.
I don't think the vast majority of Protestants have an idolotrous relation to the Bible. But I would say that some do.
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