THE KEY TO UNDERSTANDING MARY (for the benefit of our Protestant friends)

EWTN Library ^ | James Akin

[Ronaldus Magnus]

I chose the word dishonest...

You have proven yourself unworthy of rational debate on this topic by repeating this unwarranted slander in a desperate attempt to use fallacious ad hominem attacks to bolster your failing argument. I'll save my discussion for a more worthy representative of your religion and instead use that time to pray to the Blessed Mother of God, the Most Holy Virgin Mary, that she, along with all the other angles and saints, intercede for mercy on your behalf with her Son, Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"You have proven yourself unworthy of rational debate on this topic by repeating this unwarranted slander in a desperate attempt to use fallacious ad hominem attacks to bolster your failing argument."



I see you have no answers to my points.

You seem to have exceedinly thin skin - I've been called far far worse names by your Catholic bretheren her on FR.

When you tried to build your argument on the claim that Jesus was not exempt were you, or were you not aware that many of the same authors specifically exempt him elswhere in their writings?

Yes or No?

[PetroniusMaximus]

"...by repeating this unwarranted slander"

P.S. I do apologize if you took it personally.

I don't know you from Adam, so I did not intend it as a personal attack. You may be the most stand-up guy in the world. I was addressing the substance of your argument (which I have heard from other Catholics BTW) and which I find to be a disingenuous form of reasoning.

My conflict is with ideas, not people (in most cases).

[brant]

"Were [Peter's words] inspired and authoritative at the time they were written?"

You better hope not because if they are, that contradicts your Protestant interpretation (of Paul's earlier writing) to the effect that scripture (at the time of Paul's writing) was all a believer needed to know.

[brant]

"Notice he says by the obedience of ONE - not TWO (Mary and Jesus)."

Without the obedience of Mary, we would not have had Jesus.

[ladyinred]

I liked your post! Thanks!

[PetroniusMaximus]

 Without the obedience of Mary, we would not have had Jesus.


Poster previously elsewhere...

 Campion writes: "You have no idea what God "would have done [if Mary had said NO]"



God never changes, and the Bible tells us what he would have done in similar circumstances. Here is the Biblical grounds for my statement;

"Then Mordecai told them to reply to Esther, "Do not think to yourself that in the king's palace you will escape any more than all the other Jews. For if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this?" Esther 4

Specifically, "For if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place".

If Esther, or any other Biblical character, were to refuse (for whatever reason) their appointed role then God would raise up deliverance from a different place.

In Daniel we read:

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" - Daniel 4:35

There is no o­ne among all the inhabitants of the earth who can "stay His hand". No human can prevent God from fulfilling His plan.

To affirm that Mary's "no" would halt the plan of salvation is a denial of the sovereignty of God. To deny her the ability to say no is a denial of the reality of man's will.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"I will never place her between myself and Christ. And I know she would never place herself there either. And neither would the or has the Roman Catholic Church"

I agree with most of your post, but I don't believe that waht you have posted is what the Catholic Church teaches.


"We are in actuality so close together on this that I can't believe we waste so much time pointing at "issues" that divide us."

If you found out that you were required to go through Mary, would you then consider it an issue worthy to be divided over?

[PetroniusMaximus]

"You better hope not because if they are,"

OK, I'm going to take that as a yes. Now here is the deal. Peter called Paul's writings "Scripture".

2 Peter 3:

"...just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."

Peter says Paul's letters just like the "other Scriptures".


That give us a secure basis for quoting Paul (in opposition to your statement "I shall point out that the letter itself was not in the Bible at the time Paul wrote it"). According to Peter, Paul's letters WERE in the body of Scripture. Period.

---

Now to prove that "All the 'Tradition' you need is contained in the Scriptures."

2 Tim 3

"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Right there Paul states to Timothy that "the scriptures, ... are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus".

The Scriptures are able to bring you to salvation.


Additionally...

"that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work".

The Scriptures are able to reprove you, to correct you, and to train you in righteousness so that you can live a life pleasing to God and ready for all kinds of good works.


Scripture provides all that you need to be saved and to live a life pleasing to God. And that, my friend, is all a person truly needs.

[brant]

"Peter says Paul's letters just like the 'other Scriptures.'"

Wait a minute. Who told you that Peter's letter is scripture?

"Now to prove that 'All the Tradition you need is contained in the Scriptures.' 2 Tim 3"

Okay then, according to your interpretation, any tradition which came after that, you don't need! Right?

[brant]

"To affirm that Mary's 'no' would halt the plan of salvation is a denial of the sovereignty of God."

Jesus is God's salvation. Without Mary's "yes," we would not have Jesus. Do you have trouble understanding that?

[Ronaldus Magnus]

My conflict is with ideas, not people (in most cases).

In my experience, once basic civility has been lost in an inter-religious discussion the only possible outcome is increased animosity between everyone involved. Please abstain from impugning my character if you ever choose to communicate with me on other religiously oriented threads.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Without Mary's "yes," we would not have Jesus. Do you have trouble understanding that?"

If we did not have "Mary" we would have had a "Hannah" or a "Sarah" or someone else. Mary could not prevent the salvation of mankind.

There is no o­ne among all the inhabitants of the earth who can "stay His hand". No human can prevent God from fulfilling His plan.

[PetroniusMaximus]

Who told me the record of Peters words were scripture?

Why Peter himself did!

"For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased," we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.

And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts," 2 Peter 1


"Okay then, according to your interpretation, any tradition which came after that, you don't need! Right?"

Incase your going there, Paul makes reference to the Gospels as calls them "Scripture".

So I think I have proven my point.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Please abstain from impugning my character if you ever choose to communicate with me on other religiously oriented threads."

I have politely apologized to you and your still miffed?

I can only conclude that it is because you had no answer to my points. If you choose to end the conversation with this smoke cloud then so be it.

[andysandmikesmom]

I am not a Catholic...so take that into consideration...

When my older boy was diagnosed with a usually terminal, particularly rare and nasty type of leukemia, our whole family was devastated, and I could find no solace at all...our sons treatment during the early days of his illness was horrendous, and several times he was near death...

I questioned all the religious personnel I could find(at the army hospital where we found ourselves)...I could not understand why my son was stricken so, why was he suffering, where was God for my son in his time of need?...no one could give me any answers that brought me any consolation...

A wonderful Catholic priest, an army priest, came to my aid...he saw me as an extremely sad, extremely distraught mom, who was watching her son slip away from her...he told me to remember Mary, who like myself, was a mom, a mom who was losing her son in death...he reminded me that Mary suffered terribly, as I was suffering terribly...that God took pity on Mary in her sorrow, as He took pity on me in my sorrow...but God allowed Jesus to die, as perhaps He was allowing my son to die...that Mary and I shared a common tragedy...we both lost our sons, earlier in their lives than we would have wished...no mom, wants to bury her child...

From that day on, I have felt a link with Mary, that I did not feel before...oh, I know, her son was more important than mine, the most important man in the world, but Mary was human, as I am human, and we both felt the very same hurt, at seeing our sons die...

So for me, Mary is so very important, in a personal way...I know its a subjective way, not the 'Catholic' way, but its my way, for Her, and Her example, I am thankful...

[Ronaldus Magnus]

I have politely apologized to you and your still miffed?

I was never miffed, but as I said "once basic civility has been lost in an inter-religious discussion the only possible outcome is increased animosity between everyone involved." Religious dialog by it's very nature requires greater civility than most other topics. Once the name calling starts, I'm done with it. No good will come from it after that. If more people understood this basic truth, these discussions would be more productive and less adversarial.

[Uri’el-2012]

PM> My comments are a defense of the Mary of the Bible from those who wish to inflate her into some type of semi-divine, female Savior.

This need to be repeated over and over again.

All except the One who created the universe are sinners in need of a Saviour.

b'shem Y'shua

[Uri’el-2012]

PM>"Notice he says by the obedience of ONE - not TWO (Mary and Jesus)."

b>Without the obedience of Mary, we would not have had Jesus.

FALSE !
The only requirement for a vessel from which Y'shua
was to be born is any virgin,
who had no brothers,
of the house of David.

This is clearly stated in the Holy Word of G-d
in Numbers 26, 27, 36, Joshua 17
and 1 Chronicles 7.
Referring to the daughters of Zelophehad.

b'shem Y'shua

[brant]

"If we did not have 'Mary, we would have had a 'Hannah' or a 'Sarah' or someone else."

But then we would not have had Jesus; we would have had some other man. He took his human nature from Mary.