Posted on 12/02/2005 8:34:54 AM PST by sionnsar
Trust me, starfish, any non-Orthodox who asked any Orthodox priest I have ever known if he could commune in an Orthodox parish would have been politely told "no."
I really don't see how your priest would be in a position to know the *Orthodox* position on intercommunion better than those of us who are Orthodox on this list (from a variety of jurisdictional backgrounds) -- most of whom have many non-Orthodox in our families. He may get his information from Rome itself, but Rome is not where Orthodox praxis is determined.
It is true that if I approached for communion in a local Catholic church that I would be given communion. Around here, that would also be true if I were Protestant or Hindu. And Catholics are correctly told that the Catholic church has no objection to Catholics communing in Orthodox parishes.
But that is only the Catholic side of things. The Orthodox side is very clear: no inter-communion. Period. Knowledgable Catholic clergy know this, and unless they are being aggressively disrespectful of Orthodoxy, they will not encourage their parishioners to request communion at Orthodox parishes. Some Catholic priests, not knowing any better, will tell their parishioners that they can commune in Orthodox parishes, assuming that if Orthodox are allowed by the Catholic church to commune in Catholic parishes that the reverse must be true. This is an understandable error, and one that I have encountered before.
Regarding someone being turned away at the chalice, I have seen this done quietly any number of times. If a priest doesn't know the person approaching for communion, it is his duty to quietly inquire as to whether they are Orthodox and if they have prepared for communion. If the answer to either is "no", or if there is any question, they are quietly turned away -- often the priest will bless them with the chalice, or in Russian parishes with a tradition of kissing the chalice after communing, unprepared Orthodox may be invited to kiss the chalice.
I have even seen an Orthodox priest turn someone away, then after the service approach the person, discuss it further, hear the person's confession, and then commune them after the service before they themselves finish consuming the gifts.
Most Orthodox parishes will have a small sign or a notice in the bulletin (or even a short statement will be given by the priest prior to communion) saying something to the effect that only Orthodox Christians who have prepared themselves for communion should approach the chalice. Because of this prior notice, in my experience, it is very rare for someone to approach for communion who doesn't fit those criteria.
I'm glad that you added that tag. Otherwise the fact that your post was dripping with sarcasm would have slipped past me unnoticed. It was quite a well-informed post, too, given the fact that it implies that the Orthodox are fond of Islam... I'll have to tell our priest to stop commemorating all of the martyrs of the Turkish Yoke.
I'm not sure why you would get your feelings hurt by the fact that the majority of Orthodox basically didn't care for JPII but are generally optimistic about BXVI.
I'm glad to know, though, that you have a direct line to the pope. That way, if I ever do need a little chat in the kitchen with the him, I'll know right who to turn to.
I, on the other hand, being a simple country boy with manure still clinging to my cowboy boots, have no similar connections. You'll need to talk to the cosmopolitan and citified Kolokotronis if you need something at the higher levels of the Orthodox hierarchy. :-)
K., I would point out that the author of this article is a highly intelligent and devout (and very well-known) Anglican priest.
He is, however, squarely in the "evangelical" wing of the Anglican communion, so his concept of "canonical" will be far more Proestant than Catholic.
Our priests can and do turn people away, though not with any great show about it. Usually this is because someone is known to the priest to be living a lifestyle incompatible with the teachings of The Church for example, politicians who support abortion or people living together and having a sexual relationship outside of marriage or in some Churches, people whom they know haven't been to confession for some period of time. Priests will also often inquire of someone whom they don't know if they are Orthodox before they give them communion. The past couple of years, many priests have taken to making an anouncement before communion that the Eucharist is reserved to Orthodox Christians who are properly prepared by fasting and confession and are living their lives in accordance with Church teaching. This became necessary because we have seen a large number of Protestant inquirers coming to our Liturgies and innocently assuming, as is true in many Protestant churches apparently, that intercommunion is OK.
Wow, the priest can tell who is who, I guess. That is amazing....turning people away from the Lord's table. Amazing.
I wonder how the priest "inquires" about someone if that person shows up, for the first time, for Mass and communion. Very interesting. Closed shop, I guess.
He wouldn't know about the Orthodox's attitudes about inter-communion unless he was informed about it via the diocese and, from them, Rome.
This was stated as "only last week" when I heard it.
I don't mean to be blunt, but you might not be in the full loop on what goes with your Church's hierachy with Rome and the latest on that front. Unless YOU are part of the hierarchy that has been in on this. THAT I don't know.
"I wonder how the priest "inquires" about someone if that person shows up, for the first time, for Mass and communion."
He simply asks them when they appraoch for communion. But after the announcement, people don't come up by mistake much. Generally what happens is that someone living in manifest sin approahes thinking, apparently, that the rules don't apply to him or her. Within the past couple of years I observed a young fellow parade into church with his very pregnant girlfriend with whom he was living under his parents' roof. All smiles when the time came he presented himself to the priest for communion. The priest of course quietly refused him and blessed him with the chalice. The kid and his mother hit the roof. "This is America, Father. This isn't the old country! This is the 20th century. We're going to the bishop!" etc. etc. In a few weeks they got over it and apologized to the priest.
"Closed shop, I guess."
That's certainly one way to put it.
Canon 844, §2. Whenever necessity requires or genuine spiritual advantage suggests, and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is lawful for the faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose churches these sacraments are valid.Thus as a Catholic you could not just go down the street to the local Orthodox church and decide to receive Communion. Full intercommunion between us is something that we should all pray for but it has not yet arrived.
Question to Kolokotronis and Agrarian: What would the Orthodox position be when there is the danger of death and a Catholic or Orthodox person could not approach his own priest?
"Question to Kolokotronis and Agrarian: What would the Orthodox position be when there is the danger of death and a Catholic or Orthodox person could not approach his own priest?"
I have always been taught (indeed my own Metropolitan has told me this) that it is appropriate in extremis to receive the sacraments (annointing, confession, the Eucharist) from a Roman Catholic priest in the absence of an Orthodox priest. I certainly wouldn't hesitate for a second if it were me or a member of my family. Along the same lines, I have been instructed to attend Roman Catholic Mass on Sundays (but not to present myself for communion) if I am in a country where there are no Orthodox or Eastern Rite Catholic Churches available (and of course in Lebanon a whole different set of wink and nod rules apply as you pointed out). I should add that there are those in Orthodoxy who would hold that this is an impermissable violation of certain canons to which I would reply, and have, that economia is the province of my Metropolitan.
As a coda to K's comments about priest's inquiring, I would add that because every sacrament in the Orthodox Church is administered by name, a priest at the very least is always going to ask anyone approaching the chalice (whom he doesn't know) what their name is.
Thus, having a priest exchanging a few words with a newcomer to the parish who approaches the chalice prior to communing them is pretty unremarkable.
It's pretty simple: "Are you Orthodox," "are you prepared for communion," and "what is your Christian name?" All the while, the choir or chanters are singing the koinonika, those having communed are busy eating prosphora, and those awaiting communion are minding their own business.
It's all pretty natural.
What percentage of the faithful at an Orthodox church typically receive Communion on any given Sunday?
As K points out in his reply, this is the realm of economia, and economia is the domain of one's bishop. Here in America, the question is mostly a theoretical one, since almost any Catholic or Orthodox Christian who is dying can usually get a priest of his church to his bedside.
Within the Serbian/Russian world that I have spent the vast majority of my time as an Orthodox Christian, the answer would be different from that which K gives.
I have been taught that preparation for death is the work of a lifetime, and that God doesn't look at the closing hours of our life and say "well, he didn't go to confession or communion right before dying, and didn't have Holy Unction in his last hour... so he's toast."
My understanding of what I have been taught is that the economia involved for me if I find myself dying without an Orthodox priest available is that I will be given the same grace as though an Orthodox priest had been present. I would not confess to a Catholic priest or receive communion from him in extremis, but if one was present, I would certainly be grateful if he held my hand and prayed for and with me as I died. I would make my confession to God, and put my trust in his mercy. Communion is the expression of complete unity of faith -- the fact that I am dying doesn't suddenly make me to be in complete unity of faith with a Catholic priest I have never met who happens to be in the neighborhood. Again, this is not so much akrevia vs. economia as it is two different views of what economia is all about.
On a thread some time ago, I described what I experienced in our parish with the death of a saintly old woman -- the Akathists at the bedside, the Unction service, the daily communion during the last week, the immediate bedside Pannikhida after she breathed her last breath, the Pannikhida in the church, the all-night reading of the Psalter over her body, the funeral service in church, the graveside service, the series of Pannikhidas at the appointed times after the death. All of this is very comforting, beneficial, and beautiful, and I hope to have it when I die. But I don't for a minute think that if I have none of that that God won't equally have mercy on my soul and give me the grace to get through it. There is nothing magic about having or not having confession, unction, and communion in one's dying moments that will undo the spiritual labor, or lack thereof, of a lifetime.
I am not sure what guidelines Orthodox priests in our OCA diocese are given should they find themselves in an unusual situation, but I would think that they would be told not to commune a Roman Catholic, even in extremis -- but, to give comfort and to pray with them to the end. I don't know, though.
Neither approach to the economia of this theoretical situation is wrong. Both approaches have historical precedent and reasonable theological thought behind them. Interestingly, while the Slavic churches are strictest about this nowadays and the Greeks (in America, anyway) are the most broad-minded, a couple of centuries ago, exactly the opposite would have been the case. As we have discussed before, the attitude of a given local Orthodox Church varies depending on the circumstances in which it finds itself.
But again, how often does this actually happen? In my experience, it is sadly quite the opposite that happens with far too regular a frequency: "nominal" Orthodox and Catholics alike who have full access to the ministrations of their respective priests, but who don't bother to summon them.
It is always sad when the first an Orthodox priest learns of a death is when the family contacts him after the fact to do a burial or memorial service (worst of all is when they contact the priest after a cremation has already been performed on the body.) This is particularly sad when the deceased was somewhat devout but the non-devout family didn't care enough (or was too ignorant) to contact a priest. I suspect this happens in the Catholic world from time to time, as well.
It really varies. I have been at an old-line Serbian parish where only one adult communed the Sunday I was there. This was the old country way in many places, and there are many and varying reasons why this happened.
As a reaction against this, recent decades have seen a move toward frequent communion, and there are now parishes where nearly everyone communes every Sunday.
In my opinion, neither of these extremes is particularly healthy. In the one situation, parishioner are starving themselves by not receiving the Mysteries. In the other situation, it is a matter of mere statistical probability that there are a lot of parishioners who are trotting up for communion in an unprepared and potentially spiritually harmful state.
Most parishes in the Russian tradition (OCA/ROCOR) that I have attended have an emphasis on frequent, but prepared, communion. It is pretty average in these parishes for parishioners to confess roughly once a month, and for about 60 - 80% of the adults to commune on a given Sunday.
In virtually every Orthodox parish, 100% of the children under the age of 8 - 10 or so will commune weekly. This corresponds to the age when confession generally begins. Parents will bring their infants and toddlers up for communion even if they themselves are not communing.
I probably commune about half of the time, on average. As a priest once told my wife, weekly communion involves significant labor. I go through spurts where I can do it, and through lulls where I can't.
"What percentage of the faithful at an Orthodox church typically receive Communion on any given Sunday?"
Somewhere between a third and half, I'd say, on an average Sunday. This is up over 20 years ago as are confessions. Participation in the Liturgy is up too, at least here in America. In Greece and other parts of Eastern Europe weekly attendance seems much lower as a percentage of the Orthodox population but I honestly think that may be a cultural thing. People here tend to go to church and then spend the rest of the week living in many senses not only in the world but also of it. In Greece for example, Orthodoxy pervades every aspect of life. As my wife says, they walk Orthodox. Little Orthodox ways, prayers and devotions, and an almost synergistic relationship between the monasteries which are all over the place out in the countryside and the people pervade all aspects of life, at least in the villages. Its quite astonishing to observe how Orthodoxy has formed the village culture over there and compare it to our very different religious culture here.
In another response, Agrarian spoke to the different ways of the Slavic Churches from those of the Greeks. It is certainly true that at least the Russians and the Serbs are at present stricter than we Greeks are (or the Arabs for that matter). There are cultural and historical reasons for this too, all of relatively recent origin. I should point out, however, that all canonical Orthodox Churches profess the exact same Faith.
His comments on the actions of a community and its priest as a person is dying is the same as my experience. I've been with the priest a number of times when called to a deathbed. I saw it with my mother and the mother of my koumbaros. One of the prayers we have which I believe the Latin Church doesn't is the Prayer for Separation of the Soul and Body. I knew the end was near when my mother told me to go get the priest and tell him to say "the prayer". I also remember being out fishing on a lake with the priest when his cell phone rang with the message from his presbytera saying that a very old Ukrainian Orthodox priest who lived about 35 miles from our parish was dying and his Matushka wanted our priest to come (though we are not in communion with that particular Ukrainian Church). He went, annointed the priest and gave him communion. The good old man died ten minutes after Father finished "the prayer". Father stayed with the body and Matushka until the undertakers came. The old priest's bishop came to do the funeral which our Metropolitan allowed to be done in our parish church by economia. The flip side of this sort of economia is a recent order which came down from the Metropolis that the priests are forbidden to do a funeral service for anyone who has been cremated.
Given the coverage of Catholic priests in this country I know that this is hypothetical but what would the response of an Orthodox priest be to a Catholic in danger of death who could not find a Catholic priest?
"Given the coverage of Catholic priests in this country I know that this is hypothetical but what would the response of an Orthodox priest be to a Catholic in danger of death who could not find a Catholic priest?"
Don't know. I'll ask the priest after Liturgy.
More interesting than what an Orthodox priest would hypothetically do here in America is the question of what directives are given to priests in, say, the Church of Greece should they encounter this situation.
In a majority Orthodox country, this situation is more likely to happen, and the question is more relevant.
As a matter of interest, this link is to some guidelines for OCA clergy. It covers the issue of an Orthodox priest being asked to bury a non-Orthodox person (there is a specific rite in the Book of Needs for this), but nothing in the guidelines that I can find addresses the issue of a non-Orthodox Christian requesting confession or communion in extremis.
http://aggreen.net/guidelines/guide05.html
The priest was tied up with a Philoptochos meeting after Liturgy so I didn't get a chance to ask. My gut tells me its OK to give the sacraments to a Roman Catholic in extremis. My thought on this was prompted by Agrarian's question on what would happen in Greece. There, I have heard, priests have given the sacraments to Roman and Byzantine Rite Catholics and allegedly to Anglicans but no one else. This isn't apparently all that uncommon especially in times of war and today with the large numbers of Anglican and Roman Catholic tourists and business people.
I would add that even in the "stricter" background that I have had, the presumption in cases of doubt for an Orthodox priest caught in that situation would be to go ahead and confess and commune the non-Orthodox person in extremis who clearly would not die in peace without such a confession and communion.
The presumption for an Orthodox person (in my background) in extremis would be not to receive non-Orthodox sacraments. I honestly can't imagine anyone in my parish (a pretty diverse, and hardly "hard-line traditionalist" place) even having it cross their mind to call a Catholic priest for the sacraments if an Orthodox priest wasn't immediately available. The only exceptions I can think of would be a couple of people who were raised Catholic but converted to Orthodoxy after marrying an Orthodox spouse. There are also a couple of very old cradle Orthodox parishioners from the days when the local Greeks attended the Episcopalian church because there was no Orthodox church. I could see one of them possibly calling an Episcopalian priest.
And there, I think, is the heart of the matter. Most converts to Orthodoxy that I know are either Protestant or were previously unchurched. The older Orthodox (unless they intermarried with Catholics) were encouraged by the Orthodox churches of yesteryear to attend local Episcopalian churches if Orthodox parishes weren't available. Most of us simply don't think of the Catholic church as being any more Orthodox than our former Protestant denominations. I daresay this would even be true for our former Anglicans.
Kolokotronis has a Roman Catholic background in his family, so turning to the Catholic church for solace in a urgent and difficult situation would be as logical for him as it would be for me to ask a devout Protestant to pray with me should an Orthodox priest not be there. Again, I'm speaking based on my own personal experiences -- it could be that Greeks in other parts of the country have more affinity to the Catholic church than do Orthodox out here in the Wild West (again, unless there is some sort of personal or family connection.)
For that matter, Catholics around here are so used to their communion being given to them in the hospital by lay eucharistic ministers that I daresay they wouldn't think of calling an Orthodox priest.
There are only a few Orthodox priests in my very large state. They always notify each other when they are leaving town, and they drive hundreds of miles to visit sick or dying parishioners who live far from a church or who fall ill while their own priest is out of town.
If for some reason one simply couldn't make it because of someone rapidly dying or because of impassable roads, I would fully expect that I or my fellow reader would be called to put on our rason and come to the bedside to chant the prayers and give the person holy water and annoint them with holy oil (as any Orthodox layman can do.)
Ultimately, this is the responsibility of the bishops to decide local policy -- whether conveyed in a written form to their priests or in a verbal form. I think that it is terrible when bishops leave priests on their own to navigate these sorts of things.
The responsibility is a big one, since whether the priest is Roman Catholic or Orthodox, he is placing that person into communion with his church, and that person both receives grace but in a sense also incurs responsibilities before God. The priest (or authorizing bishop) also incurs responsibilities before God every time he administers the sacraments.
I think it is important to remember that Orthodox priests have many things at their disposal short of administering the sacraments. They can give antidoron (blessed bread that hasn't been consecrated), they can bless the person with holy water and give it to them to drink, they can bless with holy oil from any number of sources without performing the sacrament of Holy Unction, they can do all sorts of prayers surrounding the time of death, bring their censer and cense the patient, bless them with their cross and have them kiss icons, talk to the person and hear their final words of repentence before God without formally doing the sacrament of confession, etc...
I will ask my priest what he would do, but I would guess that he would do something like I have described in the last paragraph. If a priest in the OCA is instructed to deny an Orthodox funeral to an Orthodox Christian who has been cremated, I would expect that he would be even more cautious about administering the sacraments to non-Orthodox. But I may be wrong.
Again, as K. notes, it is interesting to see the variance of praxis on these "borderline" issues within Orthodoxy. But as he also notes, the faith shared is the same.
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