Posted on 11/30/2005 6:41:45 PM PST by NYer
Refers to St. Augustine's Commentary on Psalm 136(137)
VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI.
The Pope made this affirmation today at the general audience, commenting on a meditation written by St. Augustine (354-430).
On a rainy morning in Rome, the Holy Father's meditation, addressed to more than 23,000 people gathered in St. Peter's Square, concentrated on the suffering of the Jewish people in the Babylonian exile, expressed dramatically in Psalm 136(137).
The Pontiff referred to Augustine's commentary on this composition of the Jewish people, noting that this "Father of the Church introduces a surprising element of great timeliness."
Augustine "knows that also among the inhabitants of Babylon there are people who are committed to peace and the good of the community, despite the fact that they do not share the biblical faith, that they do not know the hope of the Eternal City to which we aspire," Benedict XVI stated.
"They have a spark of desire for the unknown, for the greatest, for the transcendent, for a genuine redemption," explained the Pope, quoting Augustine.
This spark
"And he says that among the persecutors, among the nonbelievers, there are people with this spark, with a kind of faith, of hope, in the measure that is possible for them in the circumstances in which they live," the Holy Father continued.
"With this faith in an unknown reality, they are really on the way to the authentic Jerusalem, to Christ," he clarified.
Continuing with his quotes from Augustine, the Pope added that "God will not allow them to perish with Babylon, having predestined them to be citizens of Jerusalem, on the condition, however, that, living in Babylon, they do not seek pride, outdated pomp and arrogance."
The Bishop of Rome concluded by inviting those present to pray to the Lord "that he will awaken in all of us this desire, this openness to God, and that those who do not know God may also be touched by his love, so that all of us journey together toward the definitive City and that the light of this City might also shine in our time and in our world."
It's not an "alleged" quotation. The author of the Zenit report said it and everyone here admits that. Perhaps you mean that the statement is alleged to be an accurate paraphrase or summary of the Pope's words.
Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI.
Sounds like a quote to me.
Perhaps the thread should be about Zenit. I have no idea why a Catholic would post this thread, if if fact they believed that quote to be inaccurate.
Regardless, in other statements Ratzinger I've seen here, Ratzinger's theological philosophy is quite close to that of the Bahai Faith. Perhaps he needs to be a little clearer about whether or not there is salvation in any other name.
Well, I posted a reply quoting somethings Luther had said but apparently things he said that are less than charitable are not allowed. My apologies if you saw the post but did not have time to respond.
Are you saying that kissing the Koran and bowing in respect of such a blasphemous destructive book is Kosher in Catholic circles?
Do you believe there is any value in missions? After all, if people don't need to know Christ why bother?
You're just ignoring the implications of what the pope is saying...but it would appear that you would never consider the pope incorrect, so debating it with you would be pointless.
I don't disagree with you about there being essential doctrines that define the Christian faith - step outside of those, and you no longer have the Christian religion - you have heresy.
Having said that, that doesn't mean that one must have complete understanding upon initial justification and initial sanctification (conversion). But God is in charge of the process of sanctification (the rate / progress of ones spiritual understanding)
Another aspect in this discussion of the word "hate" is the fact that ancient Hebrew was a pretty bare-bones language when it came to descriptions and nuance. The Hebrew language was pretty black-and white. It was given to hyperbole to make up for the deficiency.
Has your right eye ever tempted you to sin? Have you ever felt obliged to "pluck it out and throw it away," per Matthew 5:29? I didn't think so. But that's the kind of hyperbole I'm talking about.
Thanks for your reply. I'm not asserting that one have complete understanding of all Christian doctrine upon the moment of justification (another point of debate, but that's for a different time). But, those in teaching authority ought to agree on just what constitutes an essential doctrine, and there's none of that in Protestantism. Your pastor's list of essential doctrine is likely to be different from the pastor of virtually every other church in town. And yet, I've been told time and time again that Protestants agree on the essentials. How can that be true of different ministers can't even agree on just what that list of essentials should contain?
"But God is in charge of the process of sanctification (the rate / progress of ones spiritual understanding)"
I agree with you, mostly. Certainly, God is in charge of the process of sanctification. We must choose, however, by an act of our own will, whether and to what degree we will respond to such sanctifying grace. I've always understood (from my evangelical background) sanctification to be the process of being made holy, not being made knowledgable (though the two are undoubtedly linked).
Sorry. Should have pinged HD, whom you were answering.
You're definitely onto something there: God's "I am" pervades our lives ("In Him we live and move and have our being") whether we know it or not. And no need to apologize for "Old Testament" --- all of it is inspired by God, and points towards the incarnation of "I Am," the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, the Word-made-flesh, Jesus Christ.
He is the Savior of the World and the Messiah of Israel, and He is everywhere, rather prominently in the Old Testament, as all prophecies and archetypes refer in a mystical way to Him. The Psalms refer to Christ page after page and thought after thought, and Isaiah is practically a fifth Gospel.
I saw them. Luther, like all men, was a flawed man. That is why it is so dangerous to venerate men.
God does not call perfect men, but uses imperfect men to acheive his perfect will. In this case Luther, a flawed man, was called to begin the process of rebuilding and refining the Church that Jesus founded. The Organization which called itself "The Church" had become corrupted, but the Organization was never "the Church". There were many members of "The Church" in that organization, but the organization itself had become irreparably corrupt and had fallen into many unbliblical errors.
IMO God called Luther to the task of beginning the Reformation. But Luther was no "saint". He was a deeply flawed man, as were most of the "saints" and Popes that Catholics venerate.
I'm ignoring nothing. I read the seriously flawed and outright incorrect article and then I read the real address given by Pope Benedict. Did you read both? Night and day friend, night and day.
OTOH, are they saying that different people have some "spark" in them? If that's the case are they willing to say Luther simply saw things differently and Protestantism is fine? I doubt it. Why should Hindus, Budhists or even Protestants convert to Catholicism if everything is OK? Perhaps Huss, Wycliff or Luther wasn't so bad. We'll wait for the Catholic Church to forgive all those who they've excommunicated.
Some beliefs are OK and others are not so OK. It all depends on who you want to pick your friends with.
No, I did not read the address given by Pope Benedict, just the article above...which is quite disconcerting. My comments are based upon the article at the top of the thread I'm responding in. I doubt any of us has time to research every document related to every topic we post on in order to respond to the article posted.
To be sure, the MSM gets things wrong all the time...if you say this article is bogus I'll take your word for it.
You don't have us in anything like the box you think you have us in. Show me the citation from Vatican II that says the Catholic Church is no longer considered the true Church, the fulness of the Faith. You can't because such is nowhere to be found. Indeed, the Vatican II document Lumen Gentium declares that: "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it .... This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."
The so-called "spirit of Vatican II" is a non-existent figment of the liberal Catholic's imagination. It's our equivalent of the "living document" theory for interpreting the U.S. Constitution. It's utter nonsense, and can in no way be used to pin doctrinal "inconsistencies" on the Church. Forget the false spirit of the post-Conciliar dreamers, what does the REAL Vatican II teach on this matter? You have your answer above.
The text has nothing to do with "the nation of Israel to proceed through Jacob". Paul used the verse of Malachi and directly applied it to a personal level. Both are inspired scripture. Besides, even under your interpretation God still made a choice and that choice was that He loved one and hated another. It doesn't matter if it was one person or one nation.
Luke 14:26 and John 12:25 refers to our responsibility to God-not the nature of God. John 13:34, or John 15:12 tells how our Lord loves His elect-not unbelievers.
If you would like to cherry-pick your way through scripture we will be here forever. Like our Lord Jesus saying "anyone calling his brother a "fool" is endanger of hell" and turning around and calling the Pharisees "fools". These all must be looked at in context. If you feel our Lord just loves everyone you may wish to revisit the Old Testament where God rained fire on Sodom, drowned the Egyptians and instructed Israel to slew the Caanites.
After all the posts from catholics on this thread that DIRECTLY contradict the notion that all religions are "OK" in the mind of the Catholic Church, citing, in many csaes, official teaching in the matter, why do you persist in polemically repeating the notion now? You know that the Church doesn't say that. You know there is much more nuance to the concept than that. Yet you insist on what equates to religious libel. And this is not the first instance, or the first topic, where such things are emitted from your keyboard.
If you bothered to actually READ the aforementioned posts by Catholics, you would have sufficient answer to your question about Budhists (sic), Hindus, etc.
I notice that there is a parallel thread to this one already posted, though this one is just 6 hours old and has lively discussion. Its purpose seems to be to create a forum for Protestants to jeer and deride what purports to be the translation of the Pope's statement. Why don't you restrict you calumnious utterances to THAT thread, and leave this one to the honest questions, disagreements and discussion that at least *occasionally* appear here?
Harley, my understanding, after reading the comments, made by RCC's on another thread, is that it could be possible for the above to make it into purgatory rather than being sent to hell. The obvious advantage for a RC would be that prayers and the merits of others could be applied to a RC while in purgatory to cleanse the RC and bring them into heaven but the others would not have that privilege to receive the benefit from the treasury of the church. So, you see, there is an advantage to being a member of the RCC, especially after death. How will anyone, other than an RCC, move from purgatory to heaven?
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