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Are Catholics Born Again?
Catholic Educators ^ | Mark Brumley

Posted on 11/11/2005 5:51:08 AM PST by NYer

“Have you been born again?” the Fundamentalist at the door asks the unsuspecting Catholic. The question is usually a segue into a vast doctrinal campaign that leads many ill-instructed Catholics out of the Catholic Church. How? By making them think there is a conflict between the Bible and the Catholic Church over being “born again.”

To be honest, most Catholics probably do not understand the expression “born again.” Yes, they believe in Jesus. And yes, they try to live Christian lives. They probably have some vague awareness that Fundamentalists think being “born again” involves a religious experience or “accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.” Many cradle Catholics, too, have had their moments of closeness to God, even of joy over God's love and mercy. They may even have had “conversion experiences” of sorts, committing themselves to take their faith seriously and to live more faithfully as disciples of Jesus. But the cradle Catholic probably cannot pinpoint any particular moment in his life when he dropped to his knees and “accepted Jesus” for the first time. As far back as he can recall, he has believed, trusted and loved Jesus as Savior and Lord. Does that prove he has never been “born again”?

Not “the Bible way,” says the Fundamentalist. But the Fundamentalist is wrong there. He misunderstands what the Bible says about being “born again.” Unfortunately, few Catholics understand the biblical use of the term, either. As a result, pastors, deacons, catechists, parents and others responsible for religious education have their work cut out for them. It would be helpful, then, to review the biblical — and Catholic — meaning of the term “born again.”

"BORN AGAIN" THE BIBLE WAY

The only biblical use of the term “born again” occurs in John 3:3-5 — although, as we shall see, similar and related expressions such as “new birth” and ,regeneration” occur elsewhere in Scripture (Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 1:3, 23). In John 3:3, Jesus tells Nicodemus, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” The Greek expression translated “born again” (gennathei anothen) also means “born from above.” Jesus, it seems, makes a play on words with Nicodemus, contrasting earthly life, or what theologians would later dub natural life (“what is born of flesh”), with the new life of heaven, or what they would later call supernatural life (“what is born of Spirit”).

Nicodemus' reply: “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” (John 3:4). Does he simply mistake Jesus to be speaking literally or is Nicodemus himself answering figuratively, meaning, “How can an old man learn new ways as if he were a child again?” We cannot say for sure, but in any case Jesus answers, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.”' (John 3:5-7).

Here Jesus equates “born again” or “born from above” with “born of water and the Spirit.” If, as the Catholic Church has always held, being “born of water and the Spirit” refers to baptism, then it follows that being “born again” or “born from above” means being baptized.

Clearly, the context implies that born of “water and the Spirit” refers to baptism. The Evangelist tells us that immediately after talking with Nicodemus, Jesus took his disciples into the wilderness where they baptized people (John 3:22). Furthermore, water is closely linked to the Spirit throughout John's Gospel (for instance, in Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4:9-13) and in the Johannine tradition (cf. 1 John 5:7). It seems reasonable, then, to conclude that John the Evangelist understands Jesus' words about being “born again” and “born of water and the Spirit” to have a sacramental, baptismal meaning.

OTHER VIEWS OF "BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT"

Fundamentalists who reject baptismal regeneration usually deny that “born of water and the Spirit” in John 3:5 refers to baptism. Some argue that “water” refers to the “water of childbirth.” On this view, Jesus means that unless one is born of water (at his physical birth) and again of the Spirit (in a spiritual birth), he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

A major problem with this argument, however, is that while Jesus does contrast physical and spiritual life, he clearly uses the term “flesh” for the former, in contrast to “Spirit” for the latter. Jesus might say, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of flesh and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” — though it would be obvious and absurdly redundant to say that one must be born (i.e., born of flesh) in order to be born again (i.e., born of the Spirit). But using “born of water and the Spirit” to mean “born of the flesh and then of the Spirit” would only confuse things by introducing the term “water” from out of nowhere, without any obvious link to the term “flesh.” Moreover, while the flesh is clearly opposed to the Spirit and the Spirit clearly opposed to the flesh in this passage, the expression “born of water and the Spirit” implies no such opposition. It is not “water” vs. “the Spirit,” but “water and the Spirit.”

Furthermore, the Greek of the text suggests that “born of water and the Spirit” (literally “born of water and spirit”) refers to a single, supernatural birth over against natural birth (“born of the flesh”). The phrase “of water and the Spirit” (Greek, ek hudatos kai pneumatos) is a single linguistical unit. It refers to being “born of water and the Spirit,” not “born of water” on the one hand and “born of the Spirit” on the other.

Another argument used by opponents of baptismal regeneration: “born of water and the Spirit” refers, correspondingly, to the baptism of John (being “born of water”) and the baptism of the Spirit (being “born of ... the Spirit”), which John promised the coming Messiah would effect. Thus, on this view, Jesus says, “Unless a man is born of water through John's baptism and of the Spirit through my baptism, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”

We have already seen that, according to the Greek, “born of water and the Spirit” refers to a single thing, a single spiritual birth. Thus, the first half of the phrase cannot apply to one thing (John's baptism) and the second half to something else entirely (Jesus' baptism). But even apart from the linguistical argument, if “born of water” refers to John's baptism, then Jesus is saying that in order to be “born again” or “born from above” one must receive John's baptism of water (“born of water ...”) and the Messiah's baptism of the Spirit (“. . . and Spirit”). That would mean only those who have been baptized by John could enter the kingdom of God—which would drastically reduce the population of heaven. In fact, no one holds that people must receive John's baptism in order to enter the Kingdom — something now impossible. Therefore being “born of water . . .” cannot refer to John's baptism.

The most reasonable explanation for “born of water and the Spirit,” then, is that it refers to baptism. This is reinforced by many New Testament texts linking baptism, the Holy Spirit and regeneration. At Jesus' baptism, the Holy Spirit descends upon him as He comes up out of the water (cf. John 1:25-34; Matt 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22). Furthermore, what distinguishes John's baptism of repentance in anticipation of the Messiah from Christian baptism, is that the latter is a baptism with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:31; Acts 1:4-5).

Consequently, on Pentecost, Peter calls the Jews to “be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins” and promises that they will “receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38), thus fulfilling the promise of John. Peter clearly teaches here that the “water baptism,” to which he directs the soon-to-be converts, forgives sins and bestows the Holy Spirit. Christian baptism, then, is no mere external, repentance-ritual with water, but entails an inner transformation or regeneration by the Holy Spirit of the New Covenant; it is a “new birth,” a being “born again” or “born from above.”

In Romans 6:3, Paul says, “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (RNAB). Baptism, says Paul, effects union with the death and resurrection of Christ, so that through it we die and rise to new life, a form of “regeneration.”

According to Titus 3:5, God “saved us through the washing of regeneration (paliggenesias) and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” Opponents of baptismal regeneration argue that the text refers only to the “washing (loutrou) of regeneration” rather than the “baptism of regeneration.” But baptism is certainly a form of washing and elsewhere in the New Testament it is described as a “washing away of sin.” For example, in Acts 22:16, Ananias tells Paul, “Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling upon his name.” The Greek word used for the “washing away of sins” in baptism here is apolousai, essentially the same term used in Titus 3:5. Furthermore, since “washing” and “regeneration” are not ordinarily related terms, a specific kind of washing — one that regenerates — must be in view. The most obvious kind of washing which the reader would understand would be baptism, a point even many Baptist scholars, such as G.R. Beasley-Murray, admit. (See his book Baptism in the New Testament.)

In 1 Peter 1:3, it is stated that God has given Christians “a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” The term “new birth” (Gk, anagennasas, “having regenerated”) appears synonymous with “born again” or “regeneration.” According to 1 Peter 1:23, Christians “have been born anew (Gk, anagegennamenoi, “having been regenerated”) not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and abiding word of God.” From the word of the Gospel, in other words.

Opponents of baptismal regeneration argue that since the “new birth” mentioned in 1 Peter 1:3 and 23 is said to come about through the Word of God, being “born again” means accepting the Gospel message, not being baptized. This argument overlooks the fact that elsewhere in the New Testament accepting the gospel message and being baptized are seen as two parts of the one act of commitment to Christ.

In Mark 16:16, for instance, Jesus says, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.” “Believing”, i.e., accepting the Gospel, entails accepting baptism, which is the means by which one “puts on Christ” (Gal. 3:27) and is buried and raised with him to new life (Rom 6:3-5; Gal 2:12). Acts 2:41 says of the Jewish crowd on Pentecost, “Those who accepted his message were baptized . . .” It seems reasonable to conclude that those whom 1 Peter 1:23 describes as “having been born anew” or regenerated through the “living and abiding word of God” were also those who had been baptized. Thus, being “born of water and the Spirit” and being “born anew” through “the living and abiding word of God” describe different aspects of one thing — being regenerated in Christ. Being “born again” (or “from above”) in “water and the Spirit” refers to the external act of receiving baptism, while being “born anew” refers to the internal reception in faith of the Gospel (being “born anew” through “the living and abiding word of God”).

Moreover, baptism involves a proclamation of the Word, which is part of what constitutes it (i.e., “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”). To accept baptism is to accept the Word of God. There is no need, then, to see the operation of the Word of God in regeneration as something opposed to or separated from baptism.

Some Fundamentalists also object that being “born again” through baptismal regeneration contradicts the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith. Implicit here is the idea that Christian baptism is a mere “human work” done to earn favor before God. In fact, Christian baptism is something that is done to one (one is baptized — passive), not something one does for oneself. The one who baptizes, according to the Bible, is Jesus Himself by the power of the Holy Spirit (cf. Jn 1:33). It makes no more sense to oppose baptism and faith in Christ to one another as means of regeneration than it does to oppose faith in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit to one another. There is no either/or here; it is both/and.

THE CATHOLIC VIEW OF BEING "BORN AGAIN"

Following the New Testament use of the term, the Catholic Church links regeneration or being “born again” in the life of the Spirit to the sacrament of baptism (CCC, nos. 1215,1265-1266). Baptism is not a mere human “work” one does to “earn” regeneration and divine sonship; it is the work of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, which, by grace, washes away sin and makes us children of God. It is central to the Catholic understanding of justification by grace. For justification is, as the Council of Trent taught, “a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ” (Session 6, chapter 4). Baptism is an instrumental means by which God graciously justifies — that is, regenerates — sinners through faith in Jesus Christ and makes them children of God.

Catholic teaching is not opposed to a “religious experience” of conversion accompanying baptism (of adults) — far from it. But such an “experience” is not required. What is required for baptism to be fruitful (for an adult) is repentance from sin and faith in Christ, of which baptism is the sacrament (CCC, no. 1253). These are grace-enabled acts of the will that are not necessarily accompanied by feelings of being “born again.” Regeneration rests on the divinely established fact of incorporation and regeneration in Christ, not on feelings one way or the other.

This point can be driven home to Evangelicals by drawing on a point they often emphasize in a related context. Evangelicals often say that the act of having accepted Christ as “personal Savior and Lord” is the important thing, not whether feelings accompany that act. It is, they say, faith that matters, not feelings. Believe by faith that Christ is the Savior and the appropriate feelings, they say, will eventually follow. But even if they do not, what counts is the fact of having taken Christ as Savior.

Catholics can say something similar regarding baptism. The man who is baptized may not “feel” any different after baptism than before. But once he is baptized, he has received the Holy Spirit in a special way. He has been regenerated and made a child of God through the divine sonship of Jesus Christ in which he shares. He has been buried with Christ and raised to new life with Him. He has objectively and publicly identified himself with Jesus' death and resurrection. If the newly baptized man meditates on these things, he may or may not “feel” them, in the sense of some subjective religious experience. Nevertheless, he will believe them to be true by faith. And he will have the benefits of baptism into Christ nonetheless.

A "BORN AGAIN" CHRISTIAN?

When Fundamentalists call themselves “born again Christians,” they want to stress an experience of having entered into a genuine spiritual relationship with Christ as Savior and Lord, in contradistinction to unbelief or a mere nominal Christianity. As we have seen, though, the term “born again” and its parallel terms “new birth” and “regeneration” are used by Jesus and the New Testament writers to refer to the forgiveness of sins and inner renewal of the Holy Spirit signified and brought about by Christ through baptism.

How, then, should a Catholic answer the question, “Have you been born again?” An accurate answer would be, “Yes, I was born again in baptism.” Yet leaving it at that may generate even more confusion. Most Fundamentalists would probably understand the Catholic to mean, “I'm going to heaven simply because I'm baptized.” In other words, the Fundamentalist would think the Catholic is “trusting in his baptism” rather than Christ, whereas the informed Catholic knows it means trusting in Christ with whom he is united in baptism.

The Catholic, then, should do more than simply point to his baptism; he should discuss his living faith, trust and love of Christ; his desire to grow in sanctity and conformity to Christ; and his total dependence on Christ for salvation. These are integral to the new life of the Holy Spirit that baptism bestows. When the Fundamentalist sees the link between baptism and the Holy Spirit in the life of his Catholic neighbor, he may begin to see that St. Paul was more than figurative when he wrote, “You were buried with Christ in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead” (Col 2:12).


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: baptism; bible; bornagain; catholics; scripture; spirit
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To: x5452

"It is worldly knowledge that gives us a foolish desire to rebel against God's will."
________________________________

Free will.

I can't believe that anyone who reads the Bible with an open heart and an open mind can walk away not being a believer, but it does happen.


341 posted on 11/11/2005 8:54:29 PM PST by wmfights (lead, follow, or get out of the way)
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To: NYer
Hope is not the same as assurance.

Oh, but it can be. You seem to rely on your interpretation of the meaning of the word "hope" being "something wished for but not certain". In my American Heritage Dictionary that is the first definition. However, succeeding definitions include: "To have confidence, trust ... A wish or desire accompanied by confident expectation of its fulfillment ... Trust in God's mercy, tempered by fear of divine justice."

The weakness of human fear does not alter the truth of the finality of salvation. Paul reveals his humanity. Certainty can be had if we apprehend it. As we are continually sanctified we apprehend the truth of God's promises to us and the fear falls away.

342 posted on 11/11/2005 8:55:32 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: HarleyD
We are sealed with God's Holy Spirit which is our guarantee of our inheritance. It isn't anything that we do but it is everything that He has done. We do nothing but thank God for His grace.

Amen. In support I add the following: "When he had received the drink, Jesus said, 'It is finished.' With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." (John 19:30). It is finished. The debt is paid in full with a receipt.

343 posted on 11/11/2005 9:22:47 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper

'It is finished.'

And at that point ALL our sins were still in the future.


344 posted on 11/11/2005 9:52:10 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Dionysiusdecordealcis
1 Peter

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


Baptism is the answer so what is the question?
how do you get a good conscience?

answer baptism

How?
Romans chapter 6 buried with him into his death
Jesus shed his blood at his death


a good conscience is a conscience without sin.

one should let the Bible interpret the Bible

Hebrews 9

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


how do you get a good conscience?

Hebrews 10


1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

[the old law was not perfect it could not take away sin and give them a good conscience}

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

how do you get a good conscience?


1 Peter


21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


Was Paul sins taken away before or after baptism?
345 posted on 11/11/2005 10:05:35 PM PST by bremenboy (I am always right except when I am wrong)
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To: HarleyD
Rom 6:20-23 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. You're not free to choose whether you want to be one or the other.

Read Romans 6 more carefully. It says "WHEN YOU WERE slaves"... We are no longer slaves to sin, once we are baptized into the Lord. We are slaves to the Lord. "NOW THAT YOU HAVE BEEN FREED"... we can choose the Lord.

Ugh. I hope I don't regret this post...

Regards

346 posted on 11/11/2005 10:10:25 PM PST by jo kus
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To: x5452
does marriage continue after death? Is IT eternal?

No. At least that what Christ said to the Sadducees.

Regards

347 posted on 11/11/2005 10:13:03 PM PST by jo kus
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To: 57chevypreterist
Blah blah blah. I grew up Catholic, spent 16 years in Catholic school and university, and was proudly Catholic for 32 years. NOT ONCE in all that time, did anyone ever explain to me how I could FOR SURE have eternal life.

Now I am a born again Christian, an adherent of the Reformed faith, and a disciple of Messiah Jesus.

SO basically you shopped around until you found a sect that told you what you wanted to hear. That's sure a way to finding the truth.
348 posted on 11/11/2005 10:39:38 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: springing interest
Personally, I find that most Catholics, including those with otherwise excellent Catholic educations, are surprisingly uninstructed when it comes to the Bible.

Let me guess. You've met about 5 Catholics in your life, never set foot in a Catholic Church, never attended Mass, never spoke to a priest, etc.

What you're really saying is that Catholics aren't buying the usual Protestant misinterpretations of the Bible and they really should.
349 posted on 11/11/2005 10:43:11 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: gamarob

Are you the same poster as gamarob1, who was thrown out of here last week for being one of the worst and most vicious bomb-throwers on the Religion forums?


350 posted on 11/11/2005 10:44:26 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: HarleyD
The only "platform" that I have is that we are simply saved by God's grace and there is NOTHING that we do or will do to earn, maintain, entertain favor, or to cooperate-anything. It is a gift from God given by the Father to the Son to the praise of His glory.

So basically it's a gift forced upon us? I don't agree with this statement. A gift has to be accepted.
351 posted on 11/11/2005 10:46:21 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: wmfights
I look back now at my life and see the transforming power of the Holy Spirit that began working in my life from that moment. At the time I didn't realize what was happening, or how much I was changing. The "works" that I do today are to buy nothing. I do them out of a desire to please the LORD and be more Christlike in my daily life.

So you don't need to do anything since you one day found faith? So if you wanted to gamble and fornicate, that makes no difference in your salvation? If you say one with real faith will show works, well then we're just back to Catholic teaching.
352 posted on 11/11/2005 10:48:53 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: x5452
I am discussing this on an orthodox forum and was wondering what the Catholic beleif is: does marriage continue after death? Is IT eternal?

No, which is why widowers can remarry but the divorced cannot (without the annulment of course).
353 posted on 11/11/2005 10:50:55 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die

"No, which is why widowers can remarry "


Very interesting... and insightful.


354 posted on 11/11/2005 11:05:59 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: RobbyS
No one save you.

Eze 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

355 posted on 11/12/2005 2:16:53 AM PST by HarleyD (1 John 5:1 - "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God")
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To: jo kus
"...we can choose the Lord."

Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Psa 23:1-3 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside quiet waters. He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.

Is there a pattern here?

Joh 10:26-27 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"

There are God's sheep who He has choosen and there are those who are not His sheep. Our Lord Jesus takes care of His sheep and leads them in the paths of righteousness FOR HIS NAME'S SAKE.

Ugh. I hope I don't regret this post...

I hope we both don't. ;O)

356 posted on 11/12/2005 2:30:46 AM PST by HarleyD (1 John 5:1 - "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God")
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To: Conservative til I die
So basically it's a gift forced upon us? I don't agree with this statement. A gift has to be accepted.

Rom 9:25-26 As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

God does the calling. It is man's arrogance's to think he can refuse God.

Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

We are given to the Son by the Father. The Son will not cast out those who the Father has given Him.

357 posted on 11/12/2005 2:41:53 AM PST by HarleyD (1 John 5:1 - "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God")
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...bookmark


358 posted on 11/12/2005 3:56:02 AM PST by jer33 3
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To: Campion

I am not really sure why you have such a problem with positional sanctification. What about the atonement does not gel with this doctrine?
I was declared a sinner 2000 years ago, and Jesus substituted himself for me when it came to the punishment for that sin. As Christians, I think we can agree on that. The Bible says in Ephesians 1:7 - 2:7 that because of this substitution, and my belief in that, to God (who is outside of time) I am even now "seated in the heavenly realms in Christ". That is my "position" in Christ.

Another example is my previous "position", in sin, and in Spiritual separation from God. Substitution and separation both as a matter of terms imply a position.

So you can mock the phraseology if it makes you feel good, but I am not going to stop declaring what God has made available to US because you refuse to see it.

If it makes you feel better to use more mutually agreed upon phraseology, then feel free to use "Divine imputation of the righteousness of Christ" which a believer has access to. This is clearly not his own righteousness, and it is made possible because of the "Divine Imputation of Sin to the Lamb of God on the cross".


359 posted on 11/12/2005 4:18:46 AM PST by madconservative
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To: Rutles4Ever

" The engine (faith) may be the instrument that moves the car, but fuel (works) is what makes the engine an engine in the first place."

I truly appreciate your attempt to find mutually agreed upon middle ground (no sarcasm whatsoever). But your analogy falls short to the Protestant. A Protestant would agree that Faith is the engine, but Grace is the fuel, and our works are the emissions:) Unless by works as fuel, you refer to those of Christ.

God bless.


360 posted on 11/12/2005 5:00:40 AM PST by madconservative
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