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Are Catholics Born Again?
Catholic Educators ^ | Mark Brumley

Posted on 11/11/2005 5:51:08 AM PST by NYer

“Have you been born again?” the Fundamentalist at the door asks the unsuspecting Catholic. The question is usually a segue into a vast doctrinal campaign that leads many ill-instructed Catholics out of the Catholic Church. How? By making them think there is a conflict between the Bible and the Catholic Church over being “born again.”

To be honest, most Catholics probably do not understand the expression “born again.” Yes, they believe in Jesus. And yes, they try to live Christian lives. They probably have some vague awareness that Fundamentalists think being “born again” involves a religious experience or “accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.” Many cradle Catholics, too, have had their moments of closeness to God, even of joy over God's love and mercy. They may even have had “conversion experiences” of sorts, committing themselves to take their faith seriously and to live more faithfully as disciples of Jesus. But the cradle Catholic probably cannot pinpoint any particular moment in his life when he dropped to his knees and “accepted Jesus” for the first time. As far back as he can recall, he has believed, trusted and loved Jesus as Savior and Lord. Does that prove he has never been “born again”?

Not “the Bible way,” says the Fundamentalist. But the Fundamentalist is wrong there. He misunderstands what the Bible says about being “born again.” Unfortunately, few Catholics understand the biblical use of the term, either. As a result, pastors, deacons, catechists, parents and others responsible for religious education have their work cut out for them. It would be helpful, then, to review the biblical — and Catholic — meaning of the term “born again.”

"BORN AGAIN" THE BIBLE WAY

The only biblical use of the term “born again” occurs in John 3:3-5 — although, as we shall see, similar and related expressions such as “new birth” and ,regeneration” occur elsewhere in Scripture (Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 1:3, 23). In John 3:3, Jesus tells Nicodemus, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” The Greek expression translated “born again” (gennathei anothen) also means “born from above.” Jesus, it seems, makes a play on words with Nicodemus, contrasting earthly life, or what theologians would later dub natural life (“what is born of flesh”), with the new life of heaven, or what they would later call supernatural life (“what is born of Spirit”).

Nicodemus' reply: “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” (John 3:4). Does he simply mistake Jesus to be speaking literally or is Nicodemus himself answering figuratively, meaning, “How can an old man learn new ways as if he were a child again?” We cannot say for sure, but in any case Jesus answers, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.”' (John 3:5-7).

Here Jesus equates “born again” or “born from above” with “born of water and the Spirit.” If, as the Catholic Church has always held, being “born of water and the Spirit” refers to baptism, then it follows that being “born again” or “born from above” means being baptized.

Clearly, the context implies that born of “water and the Spirit” refers to baptism. The Evangelist tells us that immediately after talking with Nicodemus, Jesus took his disciples into the wilderness where they baptized people (John 3:22). Furthermore, water is closely linked to the Spirit throughout John's Gospel (for instance, in Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4:9-13) and in the Johannine tradition (cf. 1 John 5:7). It seems reasonable, then, to conclude that John the Evangelist understands Jesus' words about being “born again” and “born of water and the Spirit” to have a sacramental, baptismal meaning.

OTHER VIEWS OF "BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT"

Fundamentalists who reject baptismal regeneration usually deny that “born of water and the Spirit” in John 3:5 refers to baptism. Some argue that “water” refers to the “water of childbirth.” On this view, Jesus means that unless one is born of water (at his physical birth) and again of the Spirit (in a spiritual birth), he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

A major problem with this argument, however, is that while Jesus does contrast physical and spiritual life, he clearly uses the term “flesh” for the former, in contrast to “Spirit” for the latter. Jesus might say, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of flesh and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” — though it would be obvious and absurdly redundant to say that one must be born (i.e., born of flesh) in order to be born again (i.e., born of the Spirit). But using “born of water and the Spirit” to mean “born of the flesh and then of the Spirit” would only confuse things by introducing the term “water” from out of nowhere, without any obvious link to the term “flesh.” Moreover, while the flesh is clearly opposed to the Spirit and the Spirit clearly opposed to the flesh in this passage, the expression “born of water and the Spirit” implies no such opposition. It is not “water” vs. “the Spirit,” but “water and the Spirit.”

Furthermore, the Greek of the text suggests that “born of water and the Spirit” (literally “born of water and spirit”) refers to a single, supernatural birth over against natural birth (“born of the flesh”). The phrase “of water and the Spirit” (Greek, ek hudatos kai pneumatos) is a single linguistical unit. It refers to being “born of water and the Spirit,” not “born of water” on the one hand and “born of the Spirit” on the other.

Another argument used by opponents of baptismal regeneration: “born of water and the Spirit” refers, correspondingly, to the baptism of John (being “born of water”) and the baptism of the Spirit (being “born of ... the Spirit”), which John promised the coming Messiah would effect. Thus, on this view, Jesus says, “Unless a man is born of water through John's baptism and of the Spirit through my baptism, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”

We have already seen that, according to the Greek, “born of water and the Spirit” refers to a single thing, a single spiritual birth. Thus, the first half of the phrase cannot apply to one thing (John's baptism) and the second half to something else entirely (Jesus' baptism). But even apart from the linguistical argument, if “born of water” refers to John's baptism, then Jesus is saying that in order to be “born again” or “born from above” one must receive John's baptism of water (“born of water ...”) and the Messiah's baptism of the Spirit (“. . . and Spirit”). That would mean only those who have been baptized by John could enter the kingdom of God—which would drastically reduce the population of heaven. In fact, no one holds that people must receive John's baptism in order to enter the Kingdom — something now impossible. Therefore being “born of water . . .” cannot refer to John's baptism.

The most reasonable explanation for “born of water and the Spirit,” then, is that it refers to baptism. This is reinforced by many New Testament texts linking baptism, the Holy Spirit and regeneration. At Jesus' baptism, the Holy Spirit descends upon him as He comes up out of the water (cf. John 1:25-34; Matt 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22). Furthermore, what distinguishes John's baptism of repentance in anticipation of the Messiah from Christian baptism, is that the latter is a baptism with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:31; Acts 1:4-5).

Consequently, on Pentecost, Peter calls the Jews to “be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins” and promises that they will “receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38), thus fulfilling the promise of John. Peter clearly teaches here that the “water baptism,” to which he directs the soon-to-be converts, forgives sins and bestows the Holy Spirit. Christian baptism, then, is no mere external, repentance-ritual with water, but entails an inner transformation or regeneration by the Holy Spirit of the New Covenant; it is a “new birth,” a being “born again” or “born from above.”

In Romans 6:3, Paul says, “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (RNAB). Baptism, says Paul, effects union with the death and resurrection of Christ, so that through it we die and rise to new life, a form of “regeneration.”

According to Titus 3:5, God “saved us through the washing of regeneration (paliggenesias) and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” Opponents of baptismal regeneration argue that the text refers only to the “washing (loutrou) of regeneration” rather than the “baptism of regeneration.” But baptism is certainly a form of washing and elsewhere in the New Testament it is described as a “washing away of sin.” For example, in Acts 22:16, Ananias tells Paul, “Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling upon his name.” The Greek word used for the “washing away of sins” in baptism here is apolousai, essentially the same term used in Titus 3:5. Furthermore, since “washing” and “regeneration” are not ordinarily related terms, a specific kind of washing — one that regenerates — must be in view. The most obvious kind of washing which the reader would understand would be baptism, a point even many Baptist scholars, such as G.R. Beasley-Murray, admit. (See his book Baptism in the New Testament.)

In 1 Peter 1:3, it is stated that God has given Christians “a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” The term “new birth” (Gk, anagennasas, “having regenerated”) appears synonymous with “born again” or “regeneration.” According to 1 Peter 1:23, Christians “have been born anew (Gk, anagegennamenoi, “having been regenerated”) not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and abiding word of God.” From the word of the Gospel, in other words.

Opponents of baptismal regeneration argue that since the “new birth” mentioned in 1 Peter 1:3 and 23 is said to come about through the Word of God, being “born again” means accepting the Gospel message, not being baptized. This argument overlooks the fact that elsewhere in the New Testament accepting the gospel message and being baptized are seen as two parts of the one act of commitment to Christ.

In Mark 16:16, for instance, Jesus says, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.” “Believing”, i.e., accepting the Gospel, entails accepting baptism, which is the means by which one “puts on Christ” (Gal. 3:27) and is buried and raised with him to new life (Rom 6:3-5; Gal 2:12). Acts 2:41 says of the Jewish crowd on Pentecost, “Those who accepted his message were baptized . . .” It seems reasonable to conclude that those whom 1 Peter 1:23 describes as “having been born anew” or regenerated through the “living and abiding word of God” were also those who had been baptized. Thus, being “born of water and the Spirit” and being “born anew” through “the living and abiding word of God” describe different aspects of one thing — being regenerated in Christ. Being “born again” (or “from above”) in “water and the Spirit” refers to the external act of receiving baptism, while being “born anew” refers to the internal reception in faith of the Gospel (being “born anew” through “the living and abiding word of God”).

Moreover, baptism involves a proclamation of the Word, which is part of what constitutes it (i.e., “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”). To accept baptism is to accept the Word of God. There is no need, then, to see the operation of the Word of God in regeneration as something opposed to or separated from baptism.

Some Fundamentalists also object that being “born again” through baptismal regeneration contradicts the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith. Implicit here is the idea that Christian baptism is a mere “human work” done to earn favor before God. In fact, Christian baptism is something that is done to one (one is baptized — passive), not something one does for oneself. The one who baptizes, according to the Bible, is Jesus Himself by the power of the Holy Spirit (cf. Jn 1:33). It makes no more sense to oppose baptism and faith in Christ to one another as means of regeneration than it does to oppose faith in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit to one another. There is no either/or here; it is both/and.

THE CATHOLIC VIEW OF BEING "BORN AGAIN"

Following the New Testament use of the term, the Catholic Church links regeneration or being “born again” in the life of the Spirit to the sacrament of baptism (CCC, nos. 1215,1265-1266). Baptism is not a mere human “work” one does to “earn” regeneration and divine sonship; it is the work of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, which, by grace, washes away sin and makes us children of God. It is central to the Catholic understanding of justification by grace. For justification is, as the Council of Trent taught, “a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ” (Session 6, chapter 4). Baptism is an instrumental means by which God graciously justifies — that is, regenerates — sinners through faith in Jesus Christ and makes them children of God.

Catholic teaching is not opposed to a “religious experience” of conversion accompanying baptism (of adults) — far from it. But such an “experience” is not required. What is required for baptism to be fruitful (for an adult) is repentance from sin and faith in Christ, of which baptism is the sacrament (CCC, no. 1253). These are grace-enabled acts of the will that are not necessarily accompanied by feelings of being “born again.” Regeneration rests on the divinely established fact of incorporation and regeneration in Christ, not on feelings one way or the other.

This point can be driven home to Evangelicals by drawing on a point they often emphasize in a related context. Evangelicals often say that the act of having accepted Christ as “personal Savior and Lord” is the important thing, not whether feelings accompany that act. It is, they say, faith that matters, not feelings. Believe by faith that Christ is the Savior and the appropriate feelings, they say, will eventually follow. But even if they do not, what counts is the fact of having taken Christ as Savior.

Catholics can say something similar regarding baptism. The man who is baptized may not “feel” any different after baptism than before. But once he is baptized, he has received the Holy Spirit in a special way. He has been regenerated and made a child of God through the divine sonship of Jesus Christ in which he shares. He has been buried with Christ and raised to new life with Him. He has objectively and publicly identified himself with Jesus' death and resurrection. If the newly baptized man meditates on these things, he may or may not “feel” them, in the sense of some subjective religious experience. Nevertheless, he will believe them to be true by faith. And he will have the benefits of baptism into Christ nonetheless.

A "BORN AGAIN" CHRISTIAN?

When Fundamentalists call themselves “born again Christians,” they want to stress an experience of having entered into a genuine spiritual relationship with Christ as Savior and Lord, in contradistinction to unbelief or a mere nominal Christianity. As we have seen, though, the term “born again” and its parallel terms “new birth” and “regeneration” are used by Jesus and the New Testament writers to refer to the forgiveness of sins and inner renewal of the Holy Spirit signified and brought about by Christ through baptism.

How, then, should a Catholic answer the question, “Have you been born again?” An accurate answer would be, “Yes, I was born again in baptism.” Yet leaving it at that may generate even more confusion. Most Fundamentalists would probably understand the Catholic to mean, “I'm going to heaven simply because I'm baptized.” In other words, the Fundamentalist would think the Catholic is “trusting in his baptism” rather than Christ, whereas the informed Catholic knows it means trusting in Christ with whom he is united in baptism.

The Catholic, then, should do more than simply point to his baptism; he should discuss his living faith, trust and love of Christ; his desire to grow in sanctity and conformity to Christ; and his total dependence on Christ for salvation. These are integral to the new life of the Holy Spirit that baptism bestows. When the Fundamentalist sees the link between baptism and the Holy Spirit in the life of his Catholic neighbor, he may begin to see that St. Paul was more than figurative when he wrote, “You were buried with Christ in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead” (Col 2:12).


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: baptism; bible; bornagain; catholics; scripture; spirit
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To: 57chevypreterist
I am absolutely certain that I have eternal life through Jesus'death on the cross, which took away my sins (sins which prevented me from entering into eternal rest with the Lord). Do you have eternal life? Blessings!

So, it doesn't matter what your free will does for the rest of your life....you know that you have eternal life.
Gee, what a CONVENIENT ethos.
No wonder the "born-agains" get so little respect.

301 posted on 11/11/2005 2:37:03 PM PST by starfish923 ( It's never right to do wrong. Socrates)
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To: 57chevypreterist
If you have Catholic background then you should not be adverse to reading what Pope Benedict XVI had to say, forty years ago, about the matter in his "Introduction to Christianity."(p. 214)

Almost all religions center around the idea of expiation. They arise out of man's knowledge of his guilt before God and signify his attempt to remove this feeling of guilt, to surmount the guilt through conciliatory actions offered up to God. ....

In the New Testament the situation is almost completely reversed. It is not man who goes to God with a compensatory gift, but God who comes to man, in oder to give it to him. He restore disturbed right on the iniative of his own power to love, by making unjust man just again, the dead living again, through his own creative mercy. His righteousness is grace; it is active righteousness, which sets crooked man right, that is, bends him straight, makes him right. ....The New Testament does not say that men conciliate God, as we really ought to expect, since it is they who have failed, not God. It says on the contrary, "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. ... God does not wait until the guilty come to be reconciled; he gos out to meet them and reconciles them. Here we see the true direction of the incarnation, the cross.
302 posted on 11/11/2005 2:44:36 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: SoothingDave
"Of what use is this judicial fiction to a God who is eternal?"

You know - at first I was unsure also. Why would God need to call us righteous when we were clearly not (in the experiential sense). But then why would God tell Abraham he was the father of many nations when he was 90 and didn't even have a kid???

The only thing I can come to is that God wants us to walk in faith - faith in His pronouncements - even when there is NO evidence that what He has said is actually true.

Does that make sense?



"There's always Purgatory."

Come on SD! Stop with the kidding! You're killing me!

"Yes, Mr. Thief... welcome to Paradise. Wait here will we get you a spot in line to greet Jesus. Oh, I see here your ticket is only good for one hour. Well, we will come and get you on the bus to Purgatory. I see you packed light - very good. No, no, silly - you won't be needing a coat!..."



"John does say "these things I have written..." doesn't he? Maybe "those things" need to be taken into account as well?"

SD, you are exactly right. Any old Joe that picks up 1st John and reads it isn't granted an all expense paid, non revocable trip to heaven. I believe John's epistle is more like a self-examination kit. When read with an open heart and an humble attitude it can show you clearly and unmistakably your destination.
303 posted on 11/11/2005 2:45:04 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: bremenboy

You are now twisiting scripture to ignore the children Christ so loved. When will you twist it to exclude others?

Up until extremely recently it was quite acceptable for parents to make such decisions for their children and a responsibility for parents to explain Christianity to their children.

Only here has it become optional, and vague.


304 posted on 11/11/2005 3:00:18 PM PST by x5452
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To: 57chevypreterist

Oh, go ahead and post from that bigoted, misinformed site. Joe Mizzi is a fool - and he's unable to even defend himself when challenged.


305 posted on 11/11/2005 3:07:33 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's ONE NATION UNDER GOD...brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: bremenboy
If a parent truly believes the Christian faith and loves his children, he will wish that they share his faith, right?

If a parent does not care whether his children share his faith either he does not love his children or he does not hold his Christian beliefs very dear, right?

So, a parent who does truly believe that Jesus of Nazareth is God incarnate, died for our sins, redeemed the world, would devoutly wish that his children be redeemed by the precious blood of Christ, right?

Now, if baptism is a sacrament that redeems from sin, washes away our sins, as St. Peter and Jesus himself (Jn 3) said, and above all, incorporates one into the very Body of Christ, makes us adopted children of God rather than mere creatures

if this is what baptism is, then no parent in his right mind would wish his children not to share in this.

But if baptism is next-to-nothing, merely an afterthought confirming the faith that the human person has in his heart, if it is merely an external sign of an inner conversion, then baptism cannot do all the above things and a parent would not be wrong not to desire it for his children.

So it all turns on what baptism is--is it the sacrament by which we are cleansed of sins and incorporated into Christ (a child has no actual sins and original does not damn to hell, but original sin is a disorder that the parent rightly wishes to have washed away, and incorporation into Christ is such a stupendous thing that no parent in his right mind would want his child deprived of it) or is it not?

So your quarrel about infant baptism really has to do with the nature of baptism and nothing else. The problem with the view that baptism does not itself save from sin and incorporate into Christ and wash away original sin is that such a view is unknown in the history of Christianity until the 1100s and 1500s. The Scriptures speak plainly about baptism saving from sin, washing from sin, incorporating into Christ etc.

But, if one does believe that baptism is no big deal compared to inner conversion, then he certainly will not believe in infant baptism. The rest of us, including those Calvinists who fudge on the saving from sins part but at least do retain the incorporating into the covenant part (they fudge on incorporation into the Church), especially those of us who believe that Peter meant what he said when he said it washes from sin, the rest of us recognize that baptizing infants is the most perfectly ordinary thing to do.

So decide what you believe about what baptism does, then come back to infant baptism.

306 posted on 11/11/2005 3:13:55 PM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
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To: 57chevypreterist

Personally, I find that most Catholics, including those with otherwise excellent Catholic educations, are surprisingly uninstructed when it comes to the Bible.


307 posted on 11/11/2005 3:16:48 PM PST by springing interest
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To: PetroniusMaximus
we might have less of the "other" types of discussion (that none of us really like), and which in most cases devolves into sinful, angry, arrogant, spiteful arguing.

Hope you aren't including me in there. It has never been my policy to attack other christians.

308 posted on 11/11/2005 3:17:36 PM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: springing interest

There is a ton of the bible in catholic religion classes, whether people take that to heart is another story, but it's there.


309 posted on 11/11/2005 3:44:35 PM PST by x5452
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To: x5452

Sure is in my CCE classes. Lots of it.


310 posted on 11/11/2005 3:46:22 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Porterville
I should say, as a Catholic, that born again thing is a lot like Mormonism....

Hey! Leave us "Mormons" out of this.

311 posted on 11/11/2005 4:02:24 PM PST by Logophile
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Comment #312 Removed by Moderator

To: Logophile
Sorry about the Mormon crack; it is the born again types that get all pretzeled about different religions. No offense meant towards your faith.
313 posted on 11/11/2005 4:40:52 PM PST by Porterville (Pray for War- Spanish by birth, American by the Grace of God!!!)
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To: gamarob; jcb8199
But Jesus also says, He IS the way. Not a religion or church.

Yes! Jesus IS the way ... the Truth and the Life. But He also recognized that He could not be with us forever and so left us guidance and direction to follow, once He would be gone. He did not leave us orphans!

Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus' oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

John 17:9-26 - Jesus' prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.

Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.

1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean "invisible" unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.

Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.

Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.

Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.

Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.

Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.

Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations?

Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.

Source: Scripture Catholic

314 posted on 11/11/2005 4:47:22 PM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: gamarob

He also said things like, "Upon this rock I will build my church," which does let us know he was intending the Church, but it still comes down to relationship. The church is the structure where the relationship takes place, and where we get fed, and associate. Many of the spiritual gifts mentioned by Paul are for the running of the church.

Relationship to God without church is weaker than it should be in most cases.

Church without relationship to God is social club.


315 posted on 11/11/2005 4:58:35 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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Comment #316 Removed by Moderator

To: Campion

"You continue to insist on ignoring that simple verb were."

Are you referring to the word used before "some", because unless I am mistaken, it is also used before "justified"? As in, "I was a thief before I was justified". I did not disagree that their salvation happened in the past tense. I am agreeing. It happened in the past, the same time that they were justified :)

So I am not sure how arguing the fact that they repented, and were justified in the past helps your point that they were not justified?


317 posted on 11/11/2005 5:24:00 PM PST by madconservative
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To: wmfights
That's exactly what happened after I was saved. I had a desire to be baptized that built up within me.

And me as well. I knew the moment I was saved and it wasn't because of anything I had done. It was the power of God. The problem is the distortion of both Roman Catholics and many Protestants to believe that you must have "faith" or you need to "cooperate" with God. This wasn't the way I came to know Christ. He rescued me. It wasn't until 30+ years later that I finally figure this is how God saves everyone. It is through His grace and His grace alone.

Can you imagine someone asking Lydia how does she really KNOW that she is saved?!? If you're a child of God you know it.

318 posted on 11/11/2005 5:24:33 PM PST by HarleyD (1 John 5:1 - "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God")
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To: RobbyS

Wow.


319 posted on 11/11/2005 5:24:56 PM PST by madconservative
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To: SoothingDave
Clearly you're not a robot. Yes, God gives us a new Spirit with a desire to follow Him. But He also leaves us free to choose.

You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. You're not free to choose whether you want to be one or the other.

320 posted on 11/11/2005 5:47:19 PM PST by HarleyD (1 John 5:1 - "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God")
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