Are Catholics Born Again?

Catholic Educators ^ | Mark Brumley

[Knitting A Conundrum]

I used to see Father Harold Cohen in New Orleans, who worked with EWTN, who did the Closer Walk program and other things, a most holy Jesuit. Eternal rest grant him, O Lord, and may perpetual light shine upon him. But I believe he too is among the saints.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

I sort of worship God every day, and I am sure you do too in your heart...God bless.

[Rutles4Ever]

My faith is a gift from God. I have inherited it through my Baptism in Christ. Like any inheritance, I can choose to throw it away, to reject it through neglect.

I'm not assured of maintaining faith until my dying breath, and thus I am not assured of salvation until I stand before Christ and hear my judgment. Works do not merit me salvation, but they make me a caretaker of my faith and a co-operater with Christ in helping others to their own salvations. Jesus will not preserve our faith if we don't want it. We receive grace through good works and reception of the sacraments. As much grace as we can receive, the stronger our faith. When we reject opportunities of grace, that gift of faith begins to shrink. If we're not careful (working out our salvation in fear and trembling) that faith could be gone without us even knowing it.

[monkfan]

2nd Peter may be of interest here. +Peter gives a list of spiritual qualities that we, as christians, need to cultivate. He comments that the one who lacks these things is blind, as if he had never been baptized. On that basis, he encourages us to put some extra effort into it, so as to make our calling and election sure.

[madconservative]

Please stop just saying fornicators and adulterers. The verse is much more constraining than that. Other parallel verses include those who cause division, or are merely disobedient to their parents. You stated that:

"He makes no exceptions for fornicators and idolaters who declare themselves to be Christians and claim to 'take Jesus as their personal savior'"

but the statement "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" would beg to differ. Again, I contend that if the verse is read the way you wish to read it, no one who has gotten drunk after becoming a Christian can possibly go to heaven. There is no provision for that in the statement. No Christian, including Paul, ever completely mastered his or her flesh before death. Paul argued that we are to conform our actions to the citizen of heaven that we ARE. One does not achieve justification as Paul refers to by promising never to sin again, but through Faith.

Despite your "???Huh?" the concept of positional sanctification and being clothed with Christ's righteousness is very biblical:

"More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

I am saved because God looks at me, and sees one who was washed in the Blood of the Lamb, saved by Grace. The same Grace that saved me will secure me. The same Spirit who sealed me, will empower me to walk in a way pleasing to the Lord's sight (Gal 3:1-10).

Anyway, I hope you have a pleasant weekend. I have to log off and go home :) Got a lot of gutters to clear.

God Bless.

[onyx]

BOOKMARKED and BTTT for reading later.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"I probably should have said not "merely imputed." The righteousness is real, not a judicial fiction."

What if the thing you call "judicial fiction" is actually God's chosen way of making men righteous in his sight?



"But the point is that we will become actually righteous bfore we enter God's Presence. It can be no other way."

SD, how much time did the thief on the cross have to become righteous before he entered paradise? Not much. But he BELIEVED and was saved.



"I don't have any real problem with this, other than the usual stuff about the sin of presumption"

As I have posted elswhere - "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,"

Does that seem presumptious to you?

[Rutles4Ever]

In a lot of ways, this has become a semantical battle between Catholics and Protestants.

Protestants say "a man needs an engine to drive a car". That's a true statement.

Catholics say, "a man needs gasoline to drive a car". This is also true. The engine (faith) may be the instrument that moves the car, but fuel (works) is what makes the engine an engine in the first place.

What I'm saying is this: we cooperate with our faith. That faith, however, thrives as a result of our efforts to live as Christ - as Christians. If that faith does not thrive - if that faith is starved by a rejection of doing good works, then we cannot cooperate with God using that nominal faith. It's still faith given to us. But it becomes faith neglected by us, and therefore, renders us impotent as vessels of God.

I don't think you realize it, but just coming here and discussing Christ with us Catholics is a good work on your part. It will bolster your faith and lead you to truth. Not necessarily because you hear something specific from one of us, but because, as Christ said, "those who seek shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you".

Your goal (I assume) is to come closer to Christ and spread the Gospel. My friend, you are doing so! If you seek truth, you will find the truth.

[Campion]

but the statement "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" would beg to differ.

Well, no, it doesn't. You continue to insist on ignoring that simple verb were. Persons who persist in that unrepentant behavior go to hell. It doesn't matter what they call themselves, or what sort of "positional justification" they think they have. "Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father in heaven"

[Campion]

What if the thing you call "judicial fiction" is actually God's chosen way of making men righteous in his sight?

That you have a weakling of a "god". The real God of Israel enacts into reality what he declares to be true, every time. "Let there be light" causes there to be light, it does not cause light to be forensically declared to exist in utter darkness.

Saying "God declares me righteous even though I'm not" makes him out to be much less powerful than he really is.

[bremenboy]

I have not refused to answer anything. Please forgive If I can't answer as quickly as you would like. I have other things That I must do like earn a living.



An Infant Is Not Subject To Bible Baptism

An infant is not a subject of Bible baptism. The teaching of the Bible in regard to baptism eliminates the infant. Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matt. 28:18-20). Again Christ said, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk. 16:15-16). Peter commanded, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins . . ." (Acts 2:38). One must also be able to confess his faith in Christ (Matt. 10:32; Acts 8:37; Rom. 10:10).

An infant is not a subject of Bible baptism for a subject of Bible baptism has to be capable of being: (1) taught, (2) believing, (3) repenting of sins, (4) confessing his faith in Christ and (5) submitting to immersion.

Infants Are Not Sinners

An infant is not a sinner. We are often told that an infant has "original sin" on its soul. The Bible does not teach that! Jesus said concerning little children, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for such is the kingdom of God" (Mk. 10:14). Again Christ said, "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Mt. 18:3). A person has to commit sin in order to become a sinner. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 Jn. 3:4). There is a period in the life of a child, "before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good . . ." (Isa. 7:16). "God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions" (Eccl. 7:29). Ezekiel said, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him" (Ezek. 18:20).

"Infant Baptism" Not Practiced in The Bible

"Infant baptism" was not practiced by the apostles and the early church: All eleven cases of conversion in the book of Acts show that men heard the gospel preached, believed and were baptized. There is no record in the New Testament of an infant ever being baptized, or having water poured or sprinkled on him!

"Infant Baptism" Robs The Child

It robs the child of freedom of choice. Each is to do his own choosing as to whether he wants to obey God or disobey (Josh. 24:15, Rev. 22:17). It may rob the child of salvation. Many times a child, when he grows older, refuses to be baptized, saying, "My parents had me baptized when I was a baby." Thus, the child refuses to obey God (Matt. 7:21; Heb. 5:8-9). I would not want to base my salvation on the testimony of another

[SoothingDave]

What if the thing you call "judicial fiction" is actually God's chosen way of making men righteous in his sight?

Of what use is this judicial fiction to a God who is eternal?

If I am going to end up righteous and in God's Presence, He has no need to imagine that. He can see that "time" right now. No fiction, no "imputed" righteousness.

SD, how much time did the thief on the cross have to become righteous before he entered paradise? Not much. But he BELIEVED and was saved.

There's always Purgatory.

In any event, arguing from extreme situations is not an argument for how we should regard normal situations.

As I have posted elswhere - "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life," Does that seem presumptious to you?

It is not presumptuous if you do all those things that John writes about. Catholics are not in the dark. We know if we are in a state of grace we can fairly well know that we have eternal life.

We also know if we are not in a state of grace. The problem comes when some want to take that one sentence out of context and pretend it is an absolute assurance granted to all who read it without any conditions. John does say "these things I have written..." doesn't he? Maybe "those things" need to be taken into acount as well?

SD

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Not us to judge the hearts of our fellows. In fact, that could get us into serious spiritual trouble. Better to be like Barnabas, and encourage our fellows in their walk with God. "


Listen to this:

I was on a mission trip with a bunch of other Christians. One of the guys I was staying with was rather gruff - didn't seem to have the slightest interest in spiritual things. I was concerned for him.

So I was praying for him in my prayer time - and (as subjective as this sounds) I felt a slight rebuke from the Lord. After prayer I opened my Bible, looked down and these word jumped off the page at me...

Romans 14:4
"Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand."


And you know what... later in the week that guy blossomed right out! Really got on fire for the Lord - as we would say.

Boy did I feel stupid. But the Lord can make you feel stupid in the nicest way!

[wmfights]

"Ah! I pray you are never my neighbor, for you could rape my wife and rob me blind without any accountability before God! It sounds so darn... well... like people that blow themselves up because they believe they are assured salvation... for instance"
______________________________

The sinner who would do this was never saved to begin with. If you've been saved the Holy Spirit will transform you and you become a new man. Do you stop sinning? No, but you will be convicted of your sin and over time you will seek to change and become more "Christlike".

The beauty of being "Born Again" is that I have the blessed assurance that "once saved" "always saved".

If I understand RCC doctrine correctly, you may not be in a state of grace if you haven't followed the sacraments correctly. It's got to be awfully tough to be on that ferris wheel.

[NYer]

one of my chief problems with the teachings of the Catholic Church is its obfuscation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The entire Catechism of the Catholic Church is based on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Can you please clarify what you mean by obfuscation? Thanks!

Pax et Bonum

[Knitting A Conundrum]

Sometimes I think people think like we're afraid that we're going to hell, and it's just the whimsey of God if we're saved or not.

What we are saying is that if a person wants to say, "Up yours, God. I don't want anything more to do with you," he is free to walk away, just like in the parable of the wedding feast, a lot of people didn't want to go to the feast. It's an invitation, not a coercion.

We do believe if we walk with God to the end, we will be saved.

It's not an iffy process. We have great promises, and Jesus has provided us all we need to get there.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

What a great example! That's exactly what I mean. We need to be each other's support.

[Rutles4Ever]

The sinner who would do this was never saved to begin with.

Ah. Yes. The wonders of 20/20 hindsight. Supposing he walked around believing he was saved before this theoretical crime, you're saying it's not enough to tell people you're saved unless your actions reflect that?

The beauty of being "Born Again" is that I have the blessed assurance that "once saved" "always saved".

If you've been saved the Holy Spirit will transform you and you become a new man.

So once you are saved, you are infallible? You cannot commit a sin? How do you KNOW you are saved if you can't state here and now that you are infallible?

[Campion]

The sinner who would do this was never saved to begin with.

The beauty of being "Born Again" is that I have the blessed assurance that "once saved" "always saved".

How do you know you aren't one of those deluded sinner who was "never saved to begin with"? Many of them at one point or another thought they had your "blessed assurance," too. But they didn't (though they thought they did) because they were never saved to begin with. Your assurance seems pretty hollow to me; I'd rather stick with what the Bible says.

[SoothingDave]

Ah. Yes. The wonders of 20/20 hindsight. Supposing he walked around believing he was saved before this theoretical crime, you're saying it's not enough to tell people you're saved unless your actions reflect that?

The sad part is that the other guy fell into this same logic trap. It's all right here on this thread for all to read. And it didn't stop Wmfights from saying the same illogical thing.

SD