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Are Catholics Born Again?
Catholic Educators ^ | Mark Brumley

Posted on 11/11/2005 5:51:08 AM PST by NYer

“Have you been born again?” the Fundamentalist at the door asks the unsuspecting Catholic. The question is usually a segue into a vast doctrinal campaign that leads many ill-instructed Catholics out of the Catholic Church. How? By making them think there is a conflict between the Bible and the Catholic Church over being “born again.”

To be honest, most Catholics probably do not understand the expression “born again.” Yes, they believe in Jesus. And yes, they try to live Christian lives. They probably have some vague awareness that Fundamentalists think being “born again” involves a religious experience or “accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.” Many cradle Catholics, too, have had their moments of closeness to God, even of joy over God's love and mercy. They may even have had “conversion experiences” of sorts, committing themselves to take their faith seriously and to live more faithfully as disciples of Jesus. But the cradle Catholic probably cannot pinpoint any particular moment in his life when he dropped to his knees and “accepted Jesus” for the first time. As far back as he can recall, he has believed, trusted and loved Jesus as Savior and Lord. Does that prove he has never been “born again”?

Not “the Bible way,” says the Fundamentalist. But the Fundamentalist is wrong there. He misunderstands what the Bible says about being “born again.” Unfortunately, few Catholics understand the biblical use of the term, either. As a result, pastors, deacons, catechists, parents and others responsible for religious education have their work cut out for them. It would be helpful, then, to review the biblical — and Catholic — meaning of the term “born again.”

"BORN AGAIN" THE BIBLE WAY

The only biblical use of the term “born again” occurs in John 3:3-5 — although, as we shall see, similar and related expressions such as “new birth” and ,regeneration” occur elsewhere in Scripture (Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 1:3, 23). In John 3:3, Jesus tells Nicodemus, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” The Greek expression translated “born again” (gennathei anothen) also means “born from above.” Jesus, it seems, makes a play on words with Nicodemus, contrasting earthly life, or what theologians would later dub natural life (“what is born of flesh”), with the new life of heaven, or what they would later call supernatural life (“what is born of Spirit”).

Nicodemus' reply: “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” (John 3:4). Does he simply mistake Jesus to be speaking literally or is Nicodemus himself answering figuratively, meaning, “How can an old man learn new ways as if he were a child again?” We cannot say for sure, but in any case Jesus answers, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.”' (John 3:5-7).

Here Jesus equates “born again” or “born from above” with “born of water and the Spirit.” If, as the Catholic Church has always held, being “born of water and the Spirit” refers to baptism, then it follows that being “born again” or “born from above” means being baptized.

Clearly, the context implies that born of “water and the Spirit” refers to baptism. The Evangelist tells us that immediately after talking with Nicodemus, Jesus took his disciples into the wilderness where they baptized people (John 3:22). Furthermore, water is closely linked to the Spirit throughout John's Gospel (for instance, in Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4:9-13) and in the Johannine tradition (cf. 1 John 5:7). It seems reasonable, then, to conclude that John the Evangelist understands Jesus' words about being “born again” and “born of water and the Spirit” to have a sacramental, baptismal meaning.

OTHER VIEWS OF "BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT"

Fundamentalists who reject baptismal regeneration usually deny that “born of water and the Spirit” in John 3:5 refers to baptism. Some argue that “water” refers to the “water of childbirth.” On this view, Jesus means that unless one is born of water (at his physical birth) and again of the Spirit (in a spiritual birth), he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

A major problem with this argument, however, is that while Jesus does contrast physical and spiritual life, he clearly uses the term “flesh” for the former, in contrast to “Spirit” for the latter. Jesus might say, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of flesh and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” — though it would be obvious and absurdly redundant to say that one must be born (i.e., born of flesh) in order to be born again (i.e., born of the Spirit). But using “born of water and the Spirit” to mean “born of the flesh and then of the Spirit” would only confuse things by introducing the term “water” from out of nowhere, without any obvious link to the term “flesh.” Moreover, while the flesh is clearly opposed to the Spirit and the Spirit clearly opposed to the flesh in this passage, the expression “born of water and the Spirit” implies no such opposition. It is not “water” vs. “the Spirit,” but “water and the Spirit.”

Furthermore, the Greek of the text suggests that “born of water and the Spirit” (literally “born of water and spirit”) refers to a single, supernatural birth over against natural birth (“born of the flesh”). The phrase “of water and the Spirit” (Greek, ek hudatos kai pneumatos) is a single linguistical unit. It refers to being “born of water and the Spirit,” not “born of water” on the one hand and “born of the Spirit” on the other.

Another argument used by opponents of baptismal regeneration: “born of water and the Spirit” refers, correspondingly, to the baptism of John (being “born of water”) and the baptism of the Spirit (being “born of ... the Spirit”), which John promised the coming Messiah would effect. Thus, on this view, Jesus says, “Unless a man is born of water through John's baptism and of the Spirit through my baptism, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”

We have already seen that, according to the Greek, “born of water and the Spirit” refers to a single thing, a single spiritual birth. Thus, the first half of the phrase cannot apply to one thing (John's baptism) and the second half to something else entirely (Jesus' baptism). But even apart from the linguistical argument, if “born of water” refers to John's baptism, then Jesus is saying that in order to be “born again” or “born from above” one must receive John's baptism of water (“born of water ...”) and the Messiah's baptism of the Spirit (“. . . and Spirit”). That would mean only those who have been baptized by John could enter the kingdom of God—which would drastically reduce the population of heaven. In fact, no one holds that people must receive John's baptism in order to enter the Kingdom — something now impossible. Therefore being “born of water . . .” cannot refer to John's baptism.

The most reasonable explanation for “born of water and the Spirit,” then, is that it refers to baptism. This is reinforced by many New Testament texts linking baptism, the Holy Spirit and regeneration. At Jesus' baptism, the Holy Spirit descends upon him as He comes up out of the water (cf. John 1:25-34; Matt 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22). Furthermore, what distinguishes John's baptism of repentance in anticipation of the Messiah from Christian baptism, is that the latter is a baptism with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:31; Acts 1:4-5).

Consequently, on Pentecost, Peter calls the Jews to “be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins” and promises that they will “receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38), thus fulfilling the promise of John. Peter clearly teaches here that the “water baptism,” to which he directs the soon-to-be converts, forgives sins and bestows the Holy Spirit. Christian baptism, then, is no mere external, repentance-ritual with water, but entails an inner transformation or regeneration by the Holy Spirit of the New Covenant; it is a “new birth,” a being “born again” or “born from above.”

In Romans 6:3, Paul says, “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (RNAB). Baptism, says Paul, effects union with the death and resurrection of Christ, so that through it we die and rise to new life, a form of “regeneration.”

According to Titus 3:5, God “saved us through the washing of regeneration (paliggenesias) and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” Opponents of baptismal regeneration argue that the text refers only to the “washing (loutrou) of regeneration” rather than the “baptism of regeneration.” But baptism is certainly a form of washing and elsewhere in the New Testament it is described as a “washing away of sin.” For example, in Acts 22:16, Ananias tells Paul, “Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling upon his name.” The Greek word used for the “washing away of sins” in baptism here is apolousai, essentially the same term used in Titus 3:5. Furthermore, since “washing” and “regeneration” are not ordinarily related terms, a specific kind of washing — one that regenerates — must be in view. The most obvious kind of washing which the reader would understand would be baptism, a point even many Baptist scholars, such as G.R. Beasley-Murray, admit. (See his book Baptism in the New Testament.)

In 1 Peter 1:3, it is stated that God has given Christians “a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” The term “new birth” (Gk, anagennasas, “having regenerated”) appears synonymous with “born again” or “regeneration.” According to 1 Peter 1:23, Christians “have been born anew (Gk, anagegennamenoi, “having been regenerated”) not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and abiding word of God.” From the word of the Gospel, in other words.

Opponents of baptismal regeneration argue that since the “new birth” mentioned in 1 Peter 1:3 and 23 is said to come about through the Word of God, being “born again” means accepting the Gospel message, not being baptized. This argument overlooks the fact that elsewhere in the New Testament accepting the gospel message and being baptized are seen as two parts of the one act of commitment to Christ.

In Mark 16:16, for instance, Jesus says, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.” “Believing”, i.e., accepting the Gospel, entails accepting baptism, which is the means by which one “puts on Christ” (Gal. 3:27) and is buried and raised with him to new life (Rom 6:3-5; Gal 2:12). Acts 2:41 says of the Jewish crowd on Pentecost, “Those who accepted his message were baptized . . .” It seems reasonable to conclude that those whom 1 Peter 1:23 describes as “having been born anew” or regenerated through the “living and abiding word of God” were also those who had been baptized. Thus, being “born of water and the Spirit” and being “born anew” through “the living and abiding word of God” describe different aspects of one thing — being regenerated in Christ. Being “born again” (or “from above”) in “water and the Spirit” refers to the external act of receiving baptism, while being “born anew” refers to the internal reception in faith of the Gospel (being “born anew” through “the living and abiding word of God”).

Moreover, baptism involves a proclamation of the Word, which is part of what constitutes it (i.e., “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”). To accept baptism is to accept the Word of God. There is no need, then, to see the operation of the Word of God in regeneration as something opposed to or separated from baptism.

Some Fundamentalists also object that being “born again” through baptismal regeneration contradicts the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith. Implicit here is the idea that Christian baptism is a mere “human work” done to earn favor before God. In fact, Christian baptism is something that is done to one (one is baptized — passive), not something one does for oneself. The one who baptizes, according to the Bible, is Jesus Himself by the power of the Holy Spirit (cf. Jn 1:33). It makes no more sense to oppose baptism and faith in Christ to one another as means of regeneration than it does to oppose faith in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit to one another. There is no either/or here; it is both/and.

THE CATHOLIC VIEW OF BEING "BORN AGAIN"

Following the New Testament use of the term, the Catholic Church links regeneration or being “born again” in the life of the Spirit to the sacrament of baptism (CCC, nos. 1215,1265-1266). Baptism is not a mere human “work” one does to “earn” regeneration and divine sonship; it is the work of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, which, by grace, washes away sin and makes us children of God. It is central to the Catholic understanding of justification by grace. For justification is, as the Council of Trent taught, “a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ” (Session 6, chapter 4). Baptism is an instrumental means by which God graciously justifies — that is, regenerates — sinners through faith in Jesus Christ and makes them children of God.

Catholic teaching is not opposed to a “religious experience” of conversion accompanying baptism (of adults) — far from it. But such an “experience” is not required. What is required for baptism to be fruitful (for an adult) is repentance from sin and faith in Christ, of which baptism is the sacrament (CCC, no. 1253). These are grace-enabled acts of the will that are not necessarily accompanied by feelings of being “born again.” Regeneration rests on the divinely established fact of incorporation and regeneration in Christ, not on feelings one way or the other.

This point can be driven home to Evangelicals by drawing on a point they often emphasize in a related context. Evangelicals often say that the act of having accepted Christ as “personal Savior and Lord” is the important thing, not whether feelings accompany that act. It is, they say, faith that matters, not feelings. Believe by faith that Christ is the Savior and the appropriate feelings, they say, will eventually follow. But even if they do not, what counts is the fact of having taken Christ as Savior.

Catholics can say something similar regarding baptism. The man who is baptized may not “feel” any different after baptism than before. But once he is baptized, he has received the Holy Spirit in a special way. He has been regenerated and made a child of God through the divine sonship of Jesus Christ in which he shares. He has been buried with Christ and raised to new life with Him. He has objectively and publicly identified himself with Jesus' death and resurrection. If the newly baptized man meditates on these things, he may or may not “feel” them, in the sense of some subjective religious experience. Nevertheless, he will believe them to be true by faith. And he will have the benefits of baptism into Christ nonetheless.

A "BORN AGAIN" CHRISTIAN?

When Fundamentalists call themselves “born again Christians,” they want to stress an experience of having entered into a genuine spiritual relationship with Christ as Savior and Lord, in contradistinction to unbelief or a mere nominal Christianity. As we have seen, though, the term “born again” and its parallel terms “new birth” and “regeneration” are used by Jesus and the New Testament writers to refer to the forgiveness of sins and inner renewal of the Holy Spirit signified and brought about by Christ through baptism.

How, then, should a Catholic answer the question, “Have you been born again?” An accurate answer would be, “Yes, I was born again in baptism.” Yet leaving it at that may generate even more confusion. Most Fundamentalists would probably understand the Catholic to mean, “I'm going to heaven simply because I'm baptized.” In other words, the Fundamentalist would think the Catholic is “trusting in his baptism” rather than Christ, whereas the informed Catholic knows it means trusting in Christ with whom he is united in baptism.

The Catholic, then, should do more than simply point to his baptism; he should discuss his living faith, trust and love of Christ; his desire to grow in sanctity and conformity to Christ; and his total dependence on Christ for salvation. These are integral to the new life of the Holy Spirit that baptism bestows. When the Fundamentalist sees the link between baptism and the Holy Spirit in the life of his Catholic neighbor, he may begin to see that St. Paul was more than figurative when he wrote, “You were buried with Christ in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead” (Col 2:12).


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: baptism; bible; bornagain; catholics; scripture; spirit
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To: NYer
Bookmarked to read when I get home...
201 posted on 11/11/2005 12:23:33 PM PST by DocRock
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To: 57chevypreterist
Sorry, the last part of this seems not to have been included in what I just posted.

So all the passages about Jesus sitting at the right hand as Judge of all, the living and the dead, don't apply to you because you know already how he will judge you? "Welcoming arms" is the posture of a Judge who judges you to be among the sheep. Your very words convict you--you will face him as your Judge but you are convinced that he will judge you not condemned. The question is whether you have a solid basis for that presumption. I think not, you think you do. But you will face him as your Judge, for sure. And if I were you, I'd pay some attention to his (and St. Paul's) explicit warnings against exactly the sort of presumption you harbor. Did it ever occur to you that those who disagree with you, whom you look down at so condescendingly as lacking assurance might be sent by the Judge himself to ask you to reconsider your cocky presumption? Why in the world did he tell those parables about the foolish virgins, about being vigilant because we know not the hour we will be summoned to judgment, about "fear and trembling" (Paul), about being surprised when he says, "I never knew you"? If it's all so easy to be "sure" as you say it is, why did he say those things? They certainly can't be intended for those of us who are disagreeing with you now. They would seem to be aimed precisely at people like you. But then maybe Jesus just said these things for no reason at all.

202 posted on 11/11/2005 12:23:57 PM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

"This would be easy to do if talked about how God touches our lives"

I bet you are right. What I look for in people is evidence of the reality of the Holy Spirit in their lives. When I see that I am filled with joy - because that is the only thing that counts. As Paul says...

"For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."

What I fear for others is that they might have Christian religion without any real relationship with Christ. I do not intend to condem such people, but desire that they come to know Christ for real.

This is not a Prot/Cath/Orth thing. It is a matter of the true conversion of the heart. I know Prot churches that are filled with unconverted folks. They will open their eyes in hell when they die. Likewise, I have met many Catholics who evidenced no true spiritual conversion. Religion, by itself, does not save - only Christ does.


203 posted on 11/11/2005 12:25:12 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: jcb8199

Three weeks ago I went to my 25th Catholic high school reunion, and one of my classmates was on the ground bowing down before a statue of Mary, praying.

I occasionally attend Mass with my in-laws, and I observe many people bowing down before these images while praying.

Just as the Israelites in the wilderness were bowing before the image of the calf yet praying to Baal (not to the calf itself), so too the Second Commandment is God's warning regarding the USE of graven images in worship. You don't like it? Take it up with Him; they're His commandments.


204 posted on 11/11/2005 12:25:18 PM PST by 57chevypreterist (Remember, your orthodoxy was once heresy.)
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To: 57chevypreterist
Well, if I did that, then I wouldn't really be a follower of Jesus Christ then, would I?

First you say you have eternal security no matter what you do because you're a Christian, then you say if you do bad things you aren't really a Christian and can't therefore have eternal security.

205 posted on 11/11/2005 12:25:31 PM PST by Campion (Truth is not determined by a majority vote -- Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: 57chevypreterist
Well, if I did that, then I wouldn't really be a follower of Jesus Christ then, would I?

Thanks for blowing a hole into your own argument. Since you are assured that you never will rape or rob someone, you are assured of salvation.

But you will sin, and Christ teaches us that any sin is worthy of damnation. He doesn't teach that His followers are immune from big sins.

Your logic is feeble. You could indeed be a follower of Jesus and commit a horrible sin. You would not be a very good follower, but you would be one. You would need to truly repent in order to attain forgiveness.

Not just point back to the evening years ago when "all that stuff was taken care of."

SD

206 posted on 11/11/2005 12:25:35 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Dionysiusdecordealcis

It is good to work one's salvation out in fear and trembling at times. Just ask St. Paul.

And let us also remember the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector. The pharisee knew he was doing everything right, and the tax collector knew he was a sinner. God loved the repentant attitude of the sinful man best.


207 posted on 11/11/2005 12:27:26 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: jcb8199

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching.: John 14:23

Followers of Jesus are expected to exercise self-control (Galatians 5:22-23).


208 posted on 11/11/2005 12:28:13 PM PST by 57chevypreterist (Remember, your orthodoxy was once heresy.)
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To: 57chevypreterist

these images were set up in the Temple - with God's approval?

It may be startling (to say the least) to read in 1 Kings 7:25 that the brazen sea - the huge 15-foot diameter basin in the courts of the Temple - was made with graven images of twelve bulls prominently displayed. This should tell us, if nothing else, that God is not displeased by the presence of pictorial representations in holy places. Even when, as in this case, they are graven images identical to those the Israelites periodically worshipped!

Of course those weren't the only graven images in the Temple. You'll also find:

Two fifteen-foot-tall cherubim in the Holy of Holies (1 Kings 6:23-28)
All the Temple's inside walls were covered with carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers. (1 Kings 6:29)
The doors of the sanctuary and of the inner sanctuary were carved gold-overlaid images of cherubim, palm trees, and flowers (1 Kings 6:32,34)
On the Temple carts, images of bulls and lions. (1 Kings 7:29,36)
and of course the two cherubs on top of the Ark itself!
God sees the difference between graven images in general, and graven images to which one gives worship. Hopefully we can too.

In fact, God has commissioned a number of icons. He commanded Moses to display an icon in Numbers 21:8,9 - God healed the Israelites from snakebite when they looked to the icon of the snake. It was not until a later generation, when the people had named this icon Nehushtan and worshipped it as a god, that it was necessary to destroy it (2 Kings 18:4). At another time, God specifically commanded Ezekiel to paint an icon of the city of Jerusalem and to treat the icon as a symbol of Jerusalem (Ezekiel 4:1ff).

We certainly can't theorize that images are foreign to Biblical prayer and piety. Modern iconoclasm was not a feature of ancient Judaism, nor are images automatically idols. (Which is not to say that abuses never occur, as with the divinely-appointed icon that later became Nehushtan.)


209 posted on 11/11/2005 12:28:46 PM PST by x5452
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To: 57chevypreterist
But but but - you just said eternal life awaits you. You have "no guilt". How can that be? Are you impervious to the temptations of the Devil? Think about the Lord's prayer and why we petition Him not to "lead us into temptation".

Well, if I did that, then I wouldn't really be a follower of Jesus Christ then, would I?

Follower of Christ? What's that mean? Does that mean DOING things as Christ would do them? Does that mean living as Christ taught to? DOING unto others...? Visiting the imprisoned, the sick, the lonely? Feeding the starving? Showing mercy? Giving alms to the poor?

Essentially, you've just told me that although you say you're saved, you're not a follower of Christ unless you ACT like Christ? That's what Catholics are talking about when we say that faith without works is not faith! You've done a better job of defining the Catholic faith than most Catholics!

210 posted on 11/11/2005 12:29:42 PM PST by Rutles4Ever ("Fizellas! Looks like you guys are up to no good. Well, THIS gang used to be like that TOO, 3, 4)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

Was this directed at me or at Chevypreterist? I agree with what you wrote but I thought CP doesn't.


211 posted on 11/11/2005 12:30:26 PM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

Have you noticed that the former Catholics (those that left the church) are extremely bitter to the Catholic Church... but the converts who come in to the Catholic Church have nice things to say about their former place of worship? Kind of strange.

You always hear that on the Journey Home program on EWTN.


212 posted on 11/11/2005 12:30:30 PM PST by Nihil Obstat
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To: jcb8199

jcb8199, I recognize and agree with every verse you have mentioned. True conversion is evidenced by continuation in the faith and characterized by a life of love for God and others.

But you can not get around the statement of John. He says it is the very reason he wrote his epistle - that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.


"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Do you believe that you can know you have eternal life?


213 posted on 11/11/2005 12:30:52 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: 57chevypreterist
BTW, the author of the article, Mark Brumley, was an "assured salvation" Fundamentalist before he became a Catholic.

Can he still be certain he's going to heaven if he dies as a Catholic, or did he lose his "certain assurance" when he committed the unforgivable sin of Poping?

214 posted on 11/11/2005 12:30:59 PM PST by Campion (Truth is not determined by a majority vote -- Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: Rutles4Ever; DBeers; x5452; SoothingDave
"So if Baptism is just a work, I presume you find it unnecessary?"

On the contrary. It is a commandment of God and those who have been born again will desire to follow God's commandments. I do not believe as was pointed out in the Catholic's doctrine that we receive the Holy Spirit through baptism. You are baptized simply because you are a new creature and it is evidence of your rebirth. The only reason I want to be baptized is because God has planted that desire within me.

Additionally, I do not believe you have to maintain your fellowship with God. God does that for you simply because He has given you a new heart and spirit. Old things pass away. All things become new.

Can any of you please explain how man "cooperates" with God in the "new birth" process?

215 posted on 11/11/2005 12:31:20 PM PST by HarleyD (1 John 5:1 - "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God")
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Personally I have found far more evidence of it in my orthodox Parish than I did in Catholic school or my parents protestant church.

I haven't met anyone in our church who doesn't exemply being filled with the holy spirit.


216 posted on 11/11/2005 12:31:49 PM PST by x5452
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To: HarleyD

The Catholics and the Orthodox doctrine states that the Holy Spirit comes at Chrismation.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04215b.htm

http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=52

"In the sacrament of Chrismation we receive "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit" (See Rom 8, 1 Cor 6, 2 Cor 1:21-22). If baptism is our personal participation in Easter -- the death and resurrection of Christ, then chrismation is our personal participation in Pentecost -- the coming of the Holy Spirit upon us.

The sacrament of chrismation, also called confirmation, is always done in the Orthodox Church together with baptism. Just as Easter has no meaning for the world without Pentecost, so baptism has no meaning for the Christian without chrismation. In this understanding and practice, the Orthodox Church differs from the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches where the two sacraments are often separated and given other interpretations than those found in traditional Orthodoxy. "


217 posted on 11/11/2005 12:34:31 PM PST by x5452
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To: HarleyD

Oh my dear HarleyD, we've been round and round on this before. Do you truly not know how we explain cooperation or are you just baiting us?


218 posted on 11/11/2005 12:34:38 PM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
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To: 57chevypreterist
Something to read regarding the lies you and your fellow anti-Catholic, Joe Mizzi, promulgate and wrap around your yourselves as if you are the word of God when you are simply wolves in sheeps clothing -progressives to be avoided like the plague...

JUST FOR CATHOLICS

219 posted on 11/11/2005 12:34:57 PM PST by DBeers (†)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

I know, I was born and raised Catholic, went to Catholic grammar school, Jesuit college prep and university, attended Mass nearly every Sunday, went through the sacraments, etc. etc. I was proudly Catholic through and through for over 31 years until someone shared the Gospel Of Jesus Christ with me. God used that to call me into His Kingdom. And my lips will praise Him forevermore, because He has given me eternal life through His Son, who took the punishment for my sins on the cross because He loves me so. (According to the scriptures, not just 'cause I say so!)


220 posted on 11/11/2005 12:35:20 PM PST by 57chevypreterist (Remember, your orthodoxy was once heresy.)
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