Drawing the Line for Mormons: A Closer Look at the LDS Church

Catholic Exchange ^ | October 17, 2005 | Mary Kochan

[NYer]

Mormons want you to believe that they are "Christians" and that their church, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," is just another Christian denomination. Mormons themselves believe that they are Christians and that their church is the only true church. There is even a move among Mormons to shorten the name of their church to simply "The Church of Jesus Christ."

In This Article...
America's Lost Tribe
Jesus: Brother of Lucifer?
When Talking to a Mormon

America's Lost Tribe

Their founder, Joseph Smith, claimed to have been told in a vision regarding the Christian churches that God "forbade me to join with any of them" and "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight." It is hence Mormons (not Christians) who established, from the beginning of their group, an antagonistic relationship with those Christian groups already in existence. In recent years Mormons have sought to downplay this antagonism, and that testimony of Joseph Smith has received a new whitewashing in the current Newsweek cover story "The Mormon Odyssey" which relates the story like this: "God and Jesus appeared and delivered a startling message: he shouldn't join any of the churches of the world, for they had long ago fallen away from Christ's true Gospel."

In one sense clearly, Mormons are Christian. If you were going to categorize Mormons according to world-religion criteria, you would have to say they are Christians. World religions are the major belief systems found around the world that frame a tradition of enough cultural richness to support a civilization. The major world religions are Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Confucianism and Islam. Clearly Mormonism fits into the broad "Christian" category. And so would many other groups whose relationship with the wider Christian world is antagonistic: Jehovah's Witnesses, Branch Davidians, Oneness Pentecostals, etc.

It may be that in the not-too-distant future, we will have to categorize Mormonism as a separate world religion. It is the fifth-largest religious group now in the US, having just passed the Lutherans, and the LDS are experiencing rapid expansion in other countries. In many ways its development parallels that of Islam. Both religions were founded by prophets who claimed to have been visited by an angel. They borrow heavily from Judaism and Christianity, yet reject their central tenets. Both rely upon strange revisions of history. The Koran identifies Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Miriam the sister of Moses, who lived over fourteen centuries earlier. The Book of Mormon makes numerous claims regarding the peoples of the Americas (including the idea that the American Indians descended from a lost tribe of ancient Israelites) that have been refuted by history, archeology and anthropology. Both Islam and Mormonism claim that where their sacred writings contradict the Bible, the Christian and Jewish scriptures have been corrupted.

It might be argued that Mormons have the right to say that they are "Christians" and no one should deny what they say about themselves. It is possible, however, for us to respect their right to call themselves whatever they wish without feeling compelled to validate that claim ourselves. This is complicated by the fact that to many Catholics, Mormonism seems no more strange than the Baptist faith, or that of any other Protestant denomination. In part this is because Mormons themselves generally use the language and terminology common to (especially Protestant) Christians. In their initial approach to you, they will do all they can to hide or gloss over the distinctive beliefs of their church. Statements of Mormon belief sound so much like statements of the Christian faith that many Catholics and Protestants are quite willing to recognize Mormons as "Christians," not merely in the world-religion sense, but in the sense in which we Catholics recognize Protestant Christians as our "separated brethren." This is a serious error with two major consequences.

First, Christians (including Catholics) are misled into the Mormon church where they are indoctrinated in a religion which rejects the central doctrines of the Christian faith, resulting in them bringing their children up as non-Christians. Second, Christians embrace Mormons as fellow Christians instead of evangelizing them.

In order to protect Christians from this deception and to help Mormons learn the truth, we must understand how Mormon doctrine differs from the historic Christian faith that we share with Protestants. To do this, we will examine first what Mormons say, then how they define the terms they are using and how that differs from the Christian faith. Finally we provide a biblical, Christian response and suggestions for how to discuss these things with a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

The Central Question: Who is God?

What Mormons will say they believe about God:

1. We believe in God the Father who is the Father of Jesus Christ.
   
2. We worship God the Father and pray to him in Jesus's name.
   
3. Jesus is our Savior.

Why the Mormon God the Father is not the Christian God the Father:

1. "God the Father" to a Mormon is not God the Father, first Person of the Holy Trinity, Whom Christians confess. He is one of many gods.
   
2. The Mormon worships God the Father because He is the god of this planet, but other planets have other gods equal to or even greater than God the Father.
   
3. The Mormon "God the Father" had a father and was once a man on a planet who worshipped his own Father God. He was subsequently exalted to godhood. He has a physical, human body.
   
4. It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he too will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet.
   
5. The Mormons have a saying: "What man is, God once was; what God is, man will become." This is polytheism.

Christian answer:

1. The God of the Bible is the Creator and God of all the universe, of all worlds, not just our planet. He made the heavens and the earth; there is no other God; there never has been any other God, nor will there ever be another. (Gn 1:1; Is 43;10; 44:6, 8, 24)
2. God the Father was never a man.
3. You will never be God.
4. True Christianity, like Judaism, is monotheistic. As our creed states "We believe in one God."

Jesus: Brother of Lucifer?

Why the Mormon Jesus is not the Christian Jesus:

1. The Mormon Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer (Satan). They were both born in heaven by God the Father's union with one of his many spirit wives.
2. According to Mormon teaching, when it was time for Jesus to come down to earth, God the Father sent down one of his spirit wives from heaven to be born as a woman, Mary. Then he came down and had physical, marital relations with her in order for her to give birth to a human body inhabited by Jesus coming from heaven. This is a denial of the Virgin Birth.

Christian answer:

1. Since God the Father does not have a physical human body, He did not impregnate Mary by a physical union (2 Chr 6:18; Jn 4:24).
   
2. Jesus became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit and was born of the Virgin Mary (Mt 1:23; Lk 2:30-35).
3. God the Father does not have a wife or wives in heaven.
   
4. Jesus is the eternally-begotten Son of God, one in being with the Father (Jn 1:1-18).
   
5. He is not the older brother of Lucifer.
6. He is the older brother, as well as Lord and God, of those born again by water and Spirit, God's adopted children (Jn 3:3-17; Rom 8:14-17, 29).

Why the Mormon doctrine of man is not the Christian doctrine of man:

1. According to Mormonism, all human beings existed as spirit children of God and his wife in heaven before coming to earth.
   
2. They grow to spirit "adulthood" serving God (even fighting in heavenly battles), and are then sent to earth to be babies of human parents.
   
3. The earthly life is their opportunity to become gods themselves, like their heavenly Father, by "obeying the laws of the Gospel" just as the god of this planet once did.

Christian answer:

1. There is no biblical support for the idea that human beings were spirit children of God in heaven before coming to earth.
   
2. Jesus was unique in being a human being with a pre-human existence (Jn 1:18; 3:13, 31; 8:23, 58).
   
3. Jesus took on human nature at the Incarnation. God became man — not the other way around. His human nature was glorified at His Resurrection.
   
4. We will be like God in that we will have the same kind of glorified human nature which Jesus possesses, not in becoming gods and ruling planets ourselves (1 Jn 3:3; Rom 8:22, Phil 3:20-21).
   
5. While heaven is the presence of God with unfettered communion, the distinction between God and creatures remains (Rv 5:13, 14).

What is Salvation?

What Mormons will say they believe about salvation:

1. All are redeemed by the Savior's self-sacrifice, from the consequences of the fall.
   
2. Immortality comes as a free gift, by the grace of God alone, without works.
   
3. Jesus is our Savior.

Why Mormon salvation is not Christian salvation:

1. According to Mormonism, everyone and everything — all of creation — has been redeemed and therefore "saved."
   
2. This salvation gains, for all human beings, a physical resurrection only — not eternal life. Eternal life is not "salvation"; it is "exaltation."
   
3. If you ask a Mormon if he is saved (per Evangelical parlance), he will answer yes.
4. If you ask him if he believes you are saved, he will answer yes. This confuses Christians who do not understand that being "saved" and gaining "eternal life" are not the same thing in Mormon thinking.
   
5. It is further confused by the Mormon distinction between "immortality" (salvation to physical resurrection) and "eternal life" (exaltation to godhood).
6. The Mormons have a saying: "Salvation without exaltation is damnation."
7. Therefore, a Mormon can, with a straight face, tell you he believes you are "saved," while he also believes you are damned.

Christian answer:

1. We define salvation according to what we are saved from. We are saved from sin and from the wages of sin — death.
   
2. To be saved from sin is to be justified and sanctified. To be saved from death is to receive eternal life (Rom 6:22, 23).
   
3. Being saved, justified, sanctified and given eternal life by the grace of God are all things which are interconnected in the Scriptures. There is no biblical basis for separating them (Rom 5).
   
4. Seeking exaltation is contrary to the spirit of Christ. We are rather to humble ourselves, recognize our sinfulness and call upon the Lord for mercy and forgiveness (Js 4:6-10).

Why the Mormon hope is not the Christian hope:

1. It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet. This is "exaltation," and depends upon the Mormon "Plan of Eternal Progression."
2. The hope of Mormon females depends upon their being married, in a temple ceremony, to a Mormon male who achieves exaltation.
3. Mormon women married to non-Mormons ("Gentiles") can arrange for a "temple sealing" (marriage by proxy) to a Mormon male after their death. This is to assure that in eternity they are considered to have been married to and produced their children from a Mormon husband so that they and their children can be exalted.
   
4. Mormon males expect to produce offspring in heaven with their mate(s), offspring who will subsequently be sent to populate their planet and achieve their own exaltation to godhood and so on and so on…

Christian answer:

1. The God of the Bible is the Creator and God of all the universe, of all worlds, not just our planet. He made man for Himself and in His image to be in communion with God and enter into the love of the Holy Trinity.
   
2. When man fell into sin and marred the image of God in his own being, the second person of the Trinity became incarnate — taking human nature to Himself.
   
3. He then did what He could not do in the form of God: He died to save us from sin and death, so that we could come back into communion with God and share the love of the Holy Trinity. Our hope is to be with God, not to be God (Gn 1-3; Phil 2:5-11).

When Talking to a Mormon

Remember that the Mormon is trained to hide the difference between his beliefs and yours and to present himself as a Christian. However, his belief that he is a Christian is sincere, and his efforts to hide the distinctives of the Mormon religion are pursued in his desire to get you to accept Mormon teachings.

Do not allow glib, surface responses to go unchallenged; press the Mormon to define the Christian-sounding words he is using.

Define your own terms also. Draw the contrast for the Mormon. Calmly and clearly insist that what you and he believe about the nature of God, the identity of Jesus, the nature of man, salvation and eternal life are different. To pretend otherwise is dishonest.

Appeal to his honesty and sense of fairness. You might say, "Look, we are not going to get anywhere unless we are honest with each other. Without making any statement about which one of us is right, can't we just acknowledge that we do not worship the same God?" or "Can't we just acknowledge that we do not have the same hope for the future?" Help the Mormon to consider the logical and philosophical problems with the Plan of Eternal Progression.

If God had a Father and He had a Father and so on — then who was the first God? Mormons say it is an "infinite regression." But since there is no way to cross an infinite distance or pass an infinite amount of time, there would be no way to get to "now" and to "us" from an infinite past. Time has to have had a beginning and it did. It began with the creation "of all things seen and unseen" by God. Mormons say that God is omnipotent (almighty, all-powerful), yet they say there are many Gods. There cannot be more than one omnipotent being, so the Mormon conception of God is shrunken and distorted.

A big selling point of the Mormon hope for the future is the idea that families will be together eternally. But if Mormons become Gods of planets and then their children become Gods of other planets — how do the children and parents get together? Can a God leave his planet unattended while he goes to a celestial family reunion? This Mormon selling point would be diminished if we Christians were more vocal about our hope for the "new heavens and new earth" in which we know one another in the all the relationships of our present lives, only in glory (2 Pt 3:13; Rv 21:1).

Welcome the participation of Mormons in causes which we share for the common good: strengthening family life, fighting pornography and abortion, fostering the virtue of patriotism. We honor each Mormon as a person who desires what is genuinely good for himself, his family and his society — and when we share the truths of the Christian faith with him.

[Logophile]

Does the official site address or answer these questions?

Yes it does. Just go to the LDS Church web site (www.lds.org), select Search, and in the box labeled "Search the Gospel Library Archive", enter the search word(s) of interest. In most case, you will find numerous talks and articles that discuss the questions you raise.

What does it mean to a Mormon when he/she said that they are "born-again" or

Go to the Church web site and search on the term "born again." Or the next time a "Mormon" says that to you, ask him or her what he means.

If the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, why have the Mormons changed it? (There have been over 3,000 changes in the Book of Mormon, exclusive of punctuation changes).

I thought it was 4,000 changes. At any rate, you can go to the LDS Church web site and search for "Book of Mormon changes". Other articles can be found here.

If God speaks through a prophet, why do Mormons vote on whether or not to receive and authorize it?

On the LDS Church web site, search for the term "common consent". You will find numerous talks and articles that discuss this.

Why is it that no other writings have been found in the language of “Reformed Egyptian”, the supposed language of the Book of Mormon plates? Is there evidence that such a language really existed?

On the Church web site, search for "Reformed Egyptian."

Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to heaven? (See The Young Woman’s Journal, Vol 3, pages 263, 264.)

I have not been able to find an answer to this one the LDS Church site. However, the story is discussed here and here.

Why do Mormons not study Hebrew and Greek so that they can intelligently discuss the accuracy of the translation of the Bible?

Some do study those languages and other ancient languages. Many fine scholars of ancient languages are members of the LDS Church. The rest of us are busy with other concerns.

Joseph Smith prepared fourteen Articles of Faith. Why has the original No. 11 been omitted?

The charge is false. See the discussion here.

If Mormonism came as a revelation from God, why are the Mormon Temple Oaths almost identical to the oaths of the Masonic Lodge?

I am not a Mason, so I cannot discuss any resemblance between the two rituals. However, someone who is well acquainted with both the Masonic Lodge and the LDS Temple discusses this question here.

Why can't Mormons drink hot liquids? (Coffee/Tea) Why did Joseph Smith condemn drinking yet indulge himself according to his published diary?

On the LDS Church web site, search for "Word of Wisdom commandment". You will find numerous articles. I recommend the speech by Ezra Taft Benson, “A Principle with a Promise,” (Ensign, May 1983).

[apackof2]

I know the answers to these questions even though you had to research the site instead of being able to answer them yourself. But I understand. Mormonism is maize and even those in top leadership cannot answer all questions of doctrine

Basically the bottom is this;

Is Joseph Smith really a prophet of God or not?
How do we know if some is a true or false prophet of God?

Deuteronomy 18

20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Also

The fulfillment of a prophecy cannot be delayed long. "They ... say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God: There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord God." Ezek 12:21-28

Can even a "true" prophet have false revelations? Even Joseph Smith had to admit that some of his "revelations" might be of man or even of the devil. Comp Hist 1:165. This is contradictory in concept to the Deuteronomy 18:22 test, which says that the failure of the test indicates that the prophet is false. Joseph Smith here implies that the prophecy may be false, but the prophet himself is apparently still a prophet. One might ask then, what good is a prophet? Hyrum Smith, who was also a "prophet," on Nov 1, 1831, commented about prophecy and said that "if you hit once in 10 times, that is alright." [quoted by Abraham O. Smoot in 1868 at the Provo School of the Prophets] This also is a contradiction of Deut 18:22. Note that the prophecies and promises which are in the D&C "shall all be fulfilled." If even one remains unfulfilled, then this also is a false prophecy. D&C 1:37

A few of Joseph Smith’s unfilfilled prophecies;

Feb 14, 1835. HC 2:182. Joseph Smith preached that the coming of the Lord would be in 56 years (i.e., about 1891). This prophecy also occurs in his diary for April 6, 1843 and HC 5:336. See also D&C 130:14-17. Joseph Smith prophesies that "there of those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes." He prophesies "in the name of the Lord God - let it be written: that the Son of Man will not come in the heavens till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890." (The official historians have deleted the last phrase, beginning with "48 years" from the church history, but it is contained in the original diary.) The version in D&C 130 is phrased negatively, i.e., Christ will not come before 1890. It is also made conditional on Joseph Smith living to the age of 85. Joseph Smith says (v 16) that it might merely mean that if he lives to 85 he will go where Christ is, and therefore see his face. But that interpretation would not make sense if the revelation is in response to Joseph Smith's inquiry about the time of the second coming (v 14).

FULFILLMENT: The second coming did not occur about 1891, and the Church does not claim that it did. Nor has it occurred since. Joseph Smith did not live to be 85 years old. God must have known that he would not. Why would God make a revelation conditional upon an event which he knew would never happen? NATIONS SHALL TREMBLE: Nov 3, 1831. D&C 133:42 "...all nations shall tremble at thy presence."

FULFILLMENT: No one can claim that all nations tremble at the presence of the Mormons.

NEW YORK WILL BE DESTROYED: Sept 22-23, 1832. D&C 84:114-115. New York, Albany and Boston will be destroyed if they reject the gospel. The "hour of their judgment is nigh..."

FULFILLMENT: Newell K. Whitney and Joseph Smith went to New York, Albany, and Boston and preached there. These cities did not accept the gospel. They have not been destroyed.

THE END OF ALL NATIONS: Dec 25, 1832. D&C 87. Prophecy of the rebellion of South Carolina, war between the states. The South will call on Great Britain for aid, and as a result war will be poured out upon all nations; slaves will revolt; the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; famine, plague, earthquake, thunder, lightning, and a full end of all nations will result.

FULFILLMENT: This prophecy is the one most often cited by Mormons to prove Joseph Smith's prophetic power. However, most Mormons are unaware of the political situation in America at the time it was made. In November 1832 South Carolina had declared its power to "nullify" any federal act, and President Jackson was prepared to go to war to enforce federal authority. Most people expected war. Thus the "prophecy" did no more than reflect commonly held opinion. Even when the South did finally revolt, in 1861, although Great Britain came to its assistance, other elements of the prophecy were not fulfilled: slaves did not rise up, war was not poured out upon all nations, there was no world- wide famine, plague, earthquake, etc., and there was no resulting "end of all nations." Morris, PJS, contends that World War I, the associated famines, the 1918 influenza epidemic, fulfill this prophecy. But these are not as a result of the American Civil War. (see Chron JS, Dec 1832) Not even Morris claims that there were earthquakes because of it.

KIRTLAND'S MORMON BANK WILL PROSPER: Jan 1837. LDS Mess & Adv. 3:443 Joseph Smith says it is "wisdom and according to the mind of the Holy Spirit" that the saints should invest in the Kirtland Safety Society. Wilford Woodruff's journal Jan 6, 1837, records that Joseph Smith declared "that he [Joseph Smith] had received that morning the word of the Lord upon the subject of the Kirtland Safety Society," and that "if we would give heed to the commandments the Lord had given this morning all would be well." [cited in Tanner, MSR 531] John F. Boynton, apostle, said that he understood that the bank was established because it was the will of God (HC 2:509-510) Joseph Smith prophesied that like Aaron's rod the bank would swallow up other banks "and grow and flourish ... and survive when all others should be laid in ruins." Zion's Watchman March 24, 1838 [cited in Brodie p 195]

FULFILLMENT: The Kirtland Safety Society Bank, renamed the Anti- Banking Company, was organized Nov 2, 1836. It failed to receive a charter from the state, and Joseph Smith and S. Rigdon were convicted and fined $1000 for illegal banking. The bank failed miserably. Those who had invested in it lost their investment. (Comp Hist 1:401-402)

May I suggest;

Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church by Simon G. Southerton (DNA scientist, former Mormon bishop), Signature Books, 2004

Mormonism: Shadow or Reality by Gerald and Sandra Tanner, 5th edition, Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1987, Salt Lake City. The Tanners have done extensive research on early Mormon history and made many rare publications available by publishing photocopies of them at a low price. Sandra, is a great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young. And both her and her husband were born into Mormonism.

No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith by Fawn M. Brodie, 2nd ed., Knopf, New York, 1993. The most authoritative biography of Joseph Smith. Brodie is a well recognized historian.

Farewell to Eden: Coming to Terms With Mormonism and Science by Duwayne R. Anderson, Authorhouse, 2003 - a scientist and former Mormon examines Mormonism's scientific claims

An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith (2nd ed) (Paperback) on Amazon

Oh and the Bible

[servantboy777]

Count me as agnostic

Not a problem, we do. You earned that with the first sentence about space travelers. You don't really believe that do you? Your just jerking the ol chain, right?

I'm no theologian by all means, but the Bible studies I've been to, support the living God and his son Jesus. The Holy Spirit is with us now even as I type.

The Bible has layers and layers of messages from God. It is intriguing as they are unlocked during study.

Besides, why would space travelers go through all the trouble to make up a "story book" for us humanoids? Why would they seed the planet, then come back to jack with us.

Would you not think an advanced race would dispense with such sophomoric games and get on with business. The way you make it sound is that aliens from outer space are playing a kind of human chess game.

Count me as a Christian I guess!

[Logophile]

I know the answers to these questions even though you had to research the site instead of being able to answer them yourself. But I understand. Mormonism is maize and even those in top leadership cannot answer all questions of doctrine

Perhaps I misunderstood you. You had asked, "Does the official site address or answer these questions?" I showed you that most of the questions that you raised are addressed on the official site, and the rest have been dealt with elsewhere.

Now you say that my response indicates I could not answer the questions myself, because "Mormonism is a maize [sic]." That strikes me as a non sequitur.

The questions you posted are not new. They have been asked and answered many, many times before. It would be nice if the anti-Mormons would retire some of these stale old chestnuts and try something new. But that would be to admit that the Mormons might occasionally know what they are talking about.

I will conclude with a point I made before: When someone wants to know the truth about what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches, it pays to go to the source. Study what the Church actually says, then ask God whether it be right. If you ask in faith, with true intent, God will answer you.

[ScubieNuc]

"Count me as a Christian I guess!"

You don't know?

Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Jam 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

You can know.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record(the Bible) that God gave of his Son.

1Jo 5:11 And this(the Bible)is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Sincerely

[apackof2]

I am not anti-Mormon but pro truth

I quoted truth from the Scripture about the test of a true prophet, Joseph Smith failed. Simple

Its like saying the sky is blue and you deny it.

The Word said to worship Him in Spirit AND in Truth....John 4:23-24

The difference between you and me is your allegiance to and believe that salvation comes from being in the CHURCH of Mormon.

My allegiance and salvation comes from Jesus Christ, not from any church

The Mormon church didn’t die to save you from your sins, Jesus did.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You say that these questions have been answered, …by the Mormon church

Unfortunately Mormons let the church answer questions for them and believe whatever the church tells them instead of seeking on a personal basis.

I would say that you need to do this for yourself "God whether it be right. If you ask in faith, with true intent, God will answer you."

I already have my answer from the Lord, that's why I am a born-again Chrisitan even though I was brought up in a different religion. I wanted the truth more than anything I had been taught or thought to be true. So I asked and sought and I found. Matt. 7:7,8

[Pessimist]

"Besides, why would space travelers go through all the trouble to make up a "story book" for us humanoids?"

They didn't. We did. Its natural for people to seek explanations for things. When they can't, they make one up. Have you heard of the cargo cults? Google it. Really facsinating.

"Why would they seed the planet, then come back to jack with us."

I guess there I'm operating off the presumption that no matter how "advanced" people get, there still will be competing ideologies and types of people.

"Would you not think an advanced race would dispense with such sophomoric games and get on with business. The way you make it sound is that aliens from outer space are playing a kind of human chess game."

I would "hope" an advanced race would, but I am, after all, a Pessimist. Besides, there is always a considerable distance between the "highest" and "lowest" of a given society or species. Look at mother Theresa vs. the thugs of N.O.

And of course what appears to be "jerking around" to us might actually have had some purpose, etc.. we can't understand.

Anyway, bottom line: I have no proof one way or the other regarding our history. And while I respect your faith, you have to admit at some level that you really have no proof either.

Honestly, take a minute to check out cargo cults. It really is a fascinating little story from the post WW2 era w/ a lot of implications.

[ScubieNuc]

"Anyway, bottom line: I have no proof one way or the other regarding our history. And while I respect your faith, you have to admit at some level that you really have no proof either."

Please forgive me, for I haven't read all your posts, and I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just curious...How do you define proof?

I may not have time until Monday, to respond to any responses you throw at me, so, please don't think I'm ignoring your responses. If this particular thread ends feel free to FReepmail me.

Sincerely

[servantboy777]

It was sarcasm based on his agnostic statement. Of coarse I'm sure.

[servantboy777]

Sure why not.

I have to say though, the Bible is not only the inspired word of God, it is indeed a history book. It does provide proof of the living God.

Check out a book from Josh McDowell called evidence that demands a verdict. It was written by an atheist setting out to disprove the Bible, ended up proving to himself by scripture, archeology, and ancient Jewish, Roman and Greek scholars.

Very tough read I must admit. The amount of research in this book is overwhelming. All in all, after reading evidence that demands a verdict, there is no doubt Jesus is indeed the Messiah

[Redcloak]

Kindly explain why posting this sort of article is an expression of good Christian values?

Is allowing false teachings to go unchallenged "an expression of good Christian values"?

[sinatorhellary]

Monogamist Mormon here (polygamists are excommunicated).

They are now. But did you know...?

• Prophet Joseph Smith said God started the whole polygamy thing in this revelation:

  "61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

  62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified." - Doctrine and Covenants 132

• Early LDS apostles and presidens said that if polygamy wasn't true, the whole religion was worthless:

  "If the doctrine of polygamy, as revealed to the Latter-day Saints, is not true, I would not give a fig for all your other revelations that came through Joseph Smith the Prophet; I would renounce the whole of them..." - Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol 17, pp. 224-25.

  "If we were to do away with polygamy...then we must do away with prophets and Apostles, with revelation and the gifts and graces of the Gospel, and finally give up our religion altogether." - Wilford Woodruff, fourth President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Journal of Discourses, vol 13, p. 166.

  "I want to prophecy that all men who oppose the revelation which God has given in relation to polygamy will find themselves in darkness; the Spirit of God will withdraw from them the very moment of their opposition to that principle, until they will finally go down to hell and be damned, if they do not repent... if you do not become as dark as midnight there is no truth in Mormonism." Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, pp. 224-225.

• Brigham Young said polygamy was essential to becoming Gods:

  "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." - Bigham Young, second President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Journal of Discourses, vol 11, p. 269.

So, as a "monogamous Mormon"...

• If Joseph's revelation is correct (it is still in D&C 132), and those who married 10 virgins are not adulterers and are justified, on what grounds do the LDS excommunicate polygamists?

• If Pratt and Woodruff were correct in their teaching that if you give up polygamy you might as well give up Mormonism, then how can one justify being a monogomous Mormon?

• If Pratt was correct in his teaching that if you give up polygamy you will become as dark as midnight, have you started turning yet?

• If Young was correct when he said you can't become a God or a Son of God if you're not a polygamist, what's your hope?

And here's another interesting fact. The first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, printed in 1835, denounced the practice of polygamy:

"Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." - Doctrine and Covenants, section 101, verse 4

This denial of polygamy was printed in all editions of the Doctrine and Covenants until the year 1876. At that time the Mormon leaders inserted section 132, which permits a plurality of wives, and removed the revelation above condemning polygamy.

President Young's JoD 11 on the "benefits of polygamy" is a revealing read.

[Doohickey]

No.

[Spiff]

The post-4th century Christians wouldn't be called Christian either by those of the original Church that Jesus Christ founded. After the radical Hellenization of the Church in the 2nd century and after the Emperor of Rome warped the Church in the 4th century by dictating its doctrine, few of the original Church would recognize it or claim it.

[Spiff]

These teachings are simplified so as not to offend anyone that might be interested in becoming a member. They gloss over many of the beliefs about celestial (plural) marriage, tithing, the word of wisdom, garments, three degrees of glory (and what exactly it takes to achieve the Celestial Kingdom) etc.

All, and I mean ALL of the official doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, in fact, contained and displayed for all to see and explore on the Church's website. The author of this article uses an annoying method to mislead the reader in that the says, "The Mormons have a saying..." when he can't point to any scripture or doctrine which says what he's claiming. I've been a member of the Church all of my life and I've never heard many of the sayings he claims that "we" have. And if even if the saying may exist, it doesn't make it actual doctrine.

[Spiff]

Where is this documented? The only other persons who claimed to have seen the "plates" (that I know of) saw Smith looking at "something" under a cloth -- and claimed they saw the "plates" with the "eyes of faith."

It is documented right on the 3rd page of The Book of Mormon. Right after the Title Page and the Introduction. You can't miss it.

[Spiff]

The Book of Mormon is available in just about any Mariott hotel room.

I'm in a Courtyard by Marriott right now and it is right in the drawer next to the bed. Of course, I brought my own anyway.

[colorcountry]

By the way you seem to know all the answers, I could have bet you stayed at a "Quality Inn."

[colorcountry]

Before we move on to the issue of witness credibility, let us take a look at the testimony of the eight witnesses:

“Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.”

CHRISTIAN WHITMER
HIRAM PAGE
JACOB WHITMER
JOSEPH SMITH, SEN
PETER WHITMER, JUN
HYRUM SMITH
JOHN WHITMER
SAMUEL H. SMITH

Do you notice anything familiar about the surnames of the witnesses? Four of them are Whitmers – directly related to David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses. Actually, a fifth is related to the Whitmer family, as Hiram Page is the husband of David Whitmer’s sister. Of the remaining three, one is Joseph Smith’s father, and the other two are Joseph’s brothers. This isn’t exactly a variety of witnesses, and is actually quite nepotistic!

[colorcountry]

First, whether the witnesses saw actual plates, or only had visions of the plates, it is apparent that the plates where not necessary in the translation of the Book of Mormon. In Whitmer’s address, he describes the translation process:

“I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.”

So by the accounts of the witnesses, the plates remained covered during the translation. The Book of Mormon came about because Joseph Smith stuck a rock in his hat, followed it with his face, and spoke the translation for Cowdery to write down. How does the existence of plates fit into this scenario? It does not.