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Vatican Synod of Bishops - 11OCT05 - Presentations by Anglican and Lutheran Representatives
Vatican Press Office ^ | October 11, 2005

Posted on 10/12/2005 10:15:23 AM PDT by NYer

- H.G. John HIND, Bishop of Chichester (GREAT BRITAIN -ENGLAND AND WALES)

Greetings from the Archbishop of Canterbury and request for prayers for Anglicans at a difficult time. Some points concerning the theme of this Synod:
Issues of inculturation highlight the need for further discussion about diversity and unity in the Church.
When is it appropriate to share holy communion? How should we interpret the public giving of communion to the Protestant Frère Roger Schutz?
The Eucharist is not primarily a matter or rite or ceremonial but a living of the new life Christ in Christ. If it is to be truly Christian, there must be criteria for mutual recognition. No less important is the extent to which we suffer with each other.
What is the God-given dynamic of the Eucharist? The culture flowing from the Incarnation affirms our God-given humanity, including cultural diversity, but also challenges every human culture. It is only in the dialogue between the Incarnation and particular cultures, that we can identify the truly catholic.
ARCIC said that in the Eucharist in “we enter into the movement of Christ’s self-offering.” Christ’s offering was both a sacrifice to the Father for us and a “laying down of his life for his friends.” The anamnesis of his sacrifice is therefore also oriented both towards God and humanity.
This establishes three fundamental points about the Eucharist.
(a) In the Eucharist it is not our fellowship that is being celebrated, but our reconciliation with God which creates our fellowship.
(b) Also it is Christ himself who is the Lord of the Eucharist. If his Incarnation, death, resurrection and coming in glory are mysteries, if the Eucharist is itself “Mysterium fidei” then it must follow that our fellowship or communion in the Church is also a mysterion, in other words, speaking something we cannot understand by reason alone. (c) Finally, being united with Christ in his self-offering orients us not only towards God but also towards every single one of our human brothers and sisters, for whom in their amazing diversity the Son of God gave his life. “Ite, missa est” is both a statement of the completeness of Christ’s work and a charge to us to carry it forward.

[00280-02.02] [DF007] [Original text: English]

- H.E. PER LØNNING, Bishop emeritus of the Luteran Churche of Norway (NORWAY)

Warm thanks from the Lutheran World Federation, from the Church of Norway - and from myself - for inviting me as fraternal delegate and for receiving me in so open-minded and brotherly a way!
To Lutherans the holy Eucharist was and is a vital concern. Our stress on the real presence of the Lord for centuries even led us to deny eucharistic fellowship with churches of the Reformed tradition.
In order to enter into the dialogue of this Assembly, let me report a few of my experiences of promises and pains with regard to eucharistic fellowship in relation to the Roman Catholic church!
In 1971 I was for the first time invited to preach in the setting of a Roman catholic mass, which happened to be in Antwerp in Belgium. In the sacristy the young and ecumenically dedicated celebrant asked: “Of course, you will be ready to receive Holy Communion?” I quickly turned to the bishop present, about 30 years my senior: “Say, wouldn’t that be contrary to the rules of the Catholic church?” The bishop nodded, and I went on: “As a guest, I will certainly do nothing in conflict with the rules of my host.” “Thank you for your understanding attitude,” said the old bishop. And what happened? During the whole liturgy he sat next to me in the choir, and even refrained from receiving the sacrament himself. At the end he said: “Come, brother, we go to the alter and we will give the benediction together!” What a truly ecumenical experience!
1975, St.John’s Abbey, Minnesota. In a lecture on “The present state of ecumenism”, I had uttered fear that we might still have several years ahead of us before eucharistic fellowship could be formally established. It then turned out that on this place protestant students had already for some years approached the communion table, without being explicitly invited. “We had to come to terms with this,” said a Benedictine father, “and this was the outcome: Who are we, to censor the work of the Holy Spirit?” The following week I heard a similar remark from the catholic chaplain at Luther College, Iowa. His students had started to attend communion there: “I am not authorized to dissuade them from that, but as I sit there observing them, I regret one thing: that as an official catholic ambassador I cannot join”.
Ten years ago in a catholic cathedral in the southern hemisphere, I asked the officiating archbishop: “I presume you follow the official rules here, so that I remain seated during holy communion?” “Brother, it is long since we heard anything like that here, he replied. You will come and receive the sacrament right after me…”.
I hurry to my point, which is the following. The paragraphs 86 and 87 in your Instrumentum Laboris make me rather sad. Especially because I know they will make many of my catholic friends sad: bishops, professors, monastic leaders. The fact that conclusions are presented and logically championed with no reference to what has been and is going on in your own church. No attention is paid to opinions not less biblically founded than the one triumphant. Will it forward the actual ecumenical progress in case this is published as the official voice of the Roman Catholic Church?
If we really believe the presence of Christ the Saviour to be linked with the wonder of Holy Communion, how can we remain with our divided altars, and not hear the harsh question of the apostle as directed to us: “Has Christ been divided”?

[00279-02.04] [DF006] [Original text: English]


TOPICS: Activism; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: anglican; catholic; lutheran; synod; vatican
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To: Kolokotronis

I don't think that would be used for Greek Orthodox - they're not in heresy -- we and they are merely in schism. The Episcopalians on the other hand have gone stark raving mad. I cannot in good conscience receive communion from anybody who's walking with Foggy Frank Griswold and his band of heretics.


21 posted on 10/12/2005 6:33:47 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: Kolokotronis
The comments of both the Anglican representative and most especially of the Lutheran representative smack of syncretism and the Lutheran's comments should send chills up the spines of any true hierarch within the Apostolic Succession.

And, they have! Put it all into perspective. You are invited as an observer and given the opportunity to express your views as an 'observer'. Like the Orthodox, they have expressed their views. Tha's it! The Synod offers a forum for discussion. In the end, as has happened with all the other Synods, their voices have been raised and expressed but they have also been afforded the opportunity to hear those of the Catholic Church. The purpose? What is ecumenism? What was Christ's plan? All of these factor into this and all the other Synods - an opportunity to hear each other. Perhaps some day we will ALL fulfill the plan Christ laid out for us - to be united as one voice. Until then, these Synods keep the conversation going.

22 posted on 10/12/2005 6:33:59 PM PDT by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: AnAmericanMother; kosta50

"Our missalettes still contain the invitation, but add a caution that the visitor should check with his own bishop or metropolitan before receiving and should "be in accord with the rubrics" of his own faith."

That's what it used to say here. Why, since the Roman Church is very, very aware of the fact that Orthodoxy does not allow inter-communion except in the most extreme circumstamces, would a Latin diocese publish such a thing? Its seems to me terribly disrespectful of a sister church. We have never done such a thing (except as we all know in the Middle East, but, as Kosta says, that's another story).


23 posted on 10/12/2005 6:36:25 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: AnAmericanMother; Kolokotronis; NYer
Canon 844 (4) permits those outside the Catholic church to take communion IF they believe in the Catholic doctrines with respect to the Eucharist, IF they ask themselves (can't offer - they have to ask), IF no minister of their own faith is available, and IF there is danger of death or other grave circumstance

AAM, IF you qualify for all those then you just might be a Catholic in your heart and should convert without further delay.

I know we all have rules about "becoming" Orthodox, Catholic, etc. but no piece of paper is going to "make" you something you are not in your heart. A piece of paper is just that -- and administrative document that is not needed for one's faith, but for the Church administration and other administrative, legal issues.

24 posted on 10/12/2005 6:39:37 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: NYer

Why do you suppose the Anglicans and Lutherans were invited? One would have thought that a Synod of the Roman Catholic Church would have limited its participants and even speaking guests to bishops within the Apostolic Succession, within The Church.
Dialog with ecclesial assemblies is fine, I suppose, but at a Synod?


25 posted on 10/12/2005 6:39:52 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; NYer
This whole article confused me. For one thing Kolokotronis, it does reak of sycrinism. The LWF in general and the European synods in particular are known for that.

As a Lutheran, I would not even think of going to communion at an Orthodox or Roman Catholic church. To do so promotes false unity and can only confuse the members of each group. The only possible reason to think of that is a end of life position where there is not time to find my own pastor, and even then it is not something I would personally feel comfortable with.

I to have seen the little disclaimer in the front of the missalettes. I have often wondered at it. My Catholic mother in law once told me that "the Eastern Orthodox are exactly the same except for the Papacy" and I had to laugh! One of the great things about FR is that I got to talk with Eastern Christians and truly get a general idea of the differences and similarities.

At best, the Lutheran bishops were expressing a desire to unify in the face of the threat of secularism. For that I can't blame them. But to hold open communion diminishes the Sacrament.

26 posted on 10/12/2005 6:41:33 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: kosta50
It's o.k. . . . I should have emphasized that that was in the PAST.

GC 2003 happened in August, IIRC. We started looking for a church immediately, we joined our local Catholic parish provisionally (receiving under Canon 844) in January 2004, and we were received into the Catholic Faith on Memorial Day 2004.

We're home and hosed as they say (speaking of racehorses.)

27 posted on 10/12/2005 6:45:55 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: redgolum; Kolokotronis
the Lutheran bishops were expressing a desire to unify in the face of the threat of secularism

Just out of curiosity, given my opinion of the matter, what is a Lutheran "bishop?" Where does that title come from and to which Apostles are Lutheran "bishops" connected to claim their authority?

28 posted on 10/12/2005 6:47:55 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Kolokotronis
I'm not sure about this, but I think it's because it's o.k. with the Romans even if it's not o.k. with the Orthodox. I guess perhaps they want to point out that it's not Rome that is prohibiting reception.

We have a large Orthodox presence in Atlanta, both Greek and several different groups of Russians, so it's not a problem here, but if somebody lived in a very isolated area where no Orthodox priest was available, and some emergency came up, perhaps they would have been given permission ahead of time?

The invitation is so hedged about with cautions, it makes it pretty clear.

29 posted on 10/12/2005 6:51:51 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: AnAmericanMother; Kolokotronis
Thanks AAM, I was just saying that the Canon in question makes it okay because IF one believes what that Canon requires, then he or she is Catholic in every way but on paper, so the sacraments can be received.

I am a bit of a rebel in this regard. As far as I am concerned, if one believes what the Church teaches, he or she is part of that Church. No one has the power to "make" you something you are not in your heart.

30 posted on 10/12/2005 6:53:16 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: redgolum

"As a Lutheran, I would not even think of going to communion at an Orthodox or Roman Catholic church. To do so promotes false unity and can only confuse the members of each group. The only possible reason to think of that is a end of life position where there is not time to find my own pastor, and even then it is not something I would personally feel comfortable with."

You've hit the nail on the head, precisely, my friend. And in so doing you can offend no one! The time may come, God willing, when we all believe the same things and there will be a reunion, but until then, intercommunion, except in extremis, promotes confusion and a false unity. We've been down that road before and it leads nowhere.


31 posted on 10/12/2005 6:55:17 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: kosta50
" I am a bit of a rebel in this regard. " You're more than "a bit of a rebel", my Balkan bandit brother, and in more areas than this one! :)

Zhtw Serbia!

32 posted on 10/12/2005 7:03:31 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: AnAmericanMother; Kolokotronis; kosta50
We have a large Orthodox presence in Atlanta, both Greek and several different groups of Russians, so it's not a problem here, but if somebody lived in a very isolated area where no Orthodox priest was available, and some emergency came up, perhaps they would have been given permission ahead of time?

In my parish, there is a Greek Orthodox family that occasionally attends our Divine Liturgy. The wife is from Jordan and is drawn to the Syriac, Aramaic and Arabic texts. The husband is a convert from the Episcopal Church. There is a vibrant Greek Orthodox community nearby. They follow the guidelines in our missalettes which follow those published by the USCCB.

The guidelines for receiving Communion, which are issued by the U.S. bishops and published in many missalettes, explain, "We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ’s prayer for us ‘that they may all be one’ (John 17:21).

"Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law. . . . " Scripture is clear that partaking of the Eucharist is among the highest signs of Christian unity: "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Cor. 10:17). For this reason, it is normally impossible for non-Catholic Christians to receive Holy Communion, for to do so would be to proclaim a unity to exist that, regrettably, does not.

Another reason that many non-Catholics may not ordinarily receive Communion is for their own protection, since many reject the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Scripture warns that it is very dangerous for one not believing in the Real Presence to receive Communion: "For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died" (1 Cor. 11:29–30).

However, there are circumstances when non-Catholics may receive Communion from a Catholic priest. This is especially the case when it comes to Eastern Orthodox Christians, who share the same faith concerning the nature of the sacraments:

"Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full Communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned" (CIC 844 § 3). Christians in these churches should, of course, respect their own church’s guidelines regarding when it would be permissible for them to receive Communion in a Catholic church.

The circumstances in which Protestants are permitted to receive Communion are more limited, though it is still possible for them to do so under certain specifically defined circumstances.

Canon law explains the parameters: "If the danger of death is present or other grave necessity, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or the conference of bishops, Catholic ministers may licitly administer these sacraments to other Christians who do not have full Communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and on their own ask for it, provided they manifest Catholic faith in these sacraments and are properly disposed" (CIC 844 § 4).

It is important to remember that, under the rubrics specified above, even in those rare circumstances when non-Catholics are able to receive Communion, the same requirements apply to them as to Catholics.

33 posted on 10/12/2005 7:19:58 PM PDT by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: kosta50

The bishops of the Church of Sweden retained a belief in apostolic succession after the Protestant revolution.

The presbyters of the Swedish Lutheran state church continued to wear vestments and call the Mass a "sacrifice" despite the Lutheran confessions long after the break with Rome.

The Lutheran bodies in Finland and the Baltics claim Swedish successions.


34 posted on 10/12/2005 7:20:59 PM PDT by JohnRoss
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To: NYer; kosta50; MarMema; monkfan; Agrarian; FormerLib

" They follow the guidelines in our missalettes which follow those published by the USCCB."

Do they? I know for a fact that Archbishop Demetrius is absolutely against inter-communion. From whom have they gotten permission for inter-communion? In Orthodoxy this could only be given as a matter of economia and economia is the exlcusive province of a bishop. They apparently live in the Archdiocesan District. Their bishop is +Demetrius.

My suspicion is that they are confused by the remarks in your misselette and think what they are doing is OK. Tonight I've seen several comments from Roman Catholics that the Roman Church here persists in this unfortunate practice. In all honesty I think its time this become a matter for discussion by the SCOBA hierarchs or at a minimum by the Greek Orthodox Eparchal Synod so that an appropriate protest can be made to the Vatican through the Ecumenical Patriarchate. This looks like "backdoor" Uniatism to me.


35 posted on 10/12/2005 7:35:36 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: Kolokotronis; Agrarian; kosta50; monkfan; katnip
My oldest daughter, at age 13, was visiting family out of state and went to mass with them. She was strongly encouraged to take communion, mostly by outsiders/friends of family, but stood her ground.

When she came home and told me about it, I took it as a gesture of friendship and sharing on the part of those strangers who had been so vocal in encouraging her (and knew she was Eastern Orthodox). But she had been very offended by it, and she was almost angry when she told us about it later.

38 posted on 10/12/2005 8:19:04 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: TonyRo76; kosta50

I seriously doubt that we are going to find only Orthodox and Catholics in the next world. Our boys are in a joint Orthodox-Lutheran Scout troop and I think the Lutherans are awesome Christians. I fully hope to know them after this life as well.


39 posted on 10/12/2005 8:23:43 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: TonyRo76
The True Church exists wherever the Word of God—the incarnate, crucified and risen Christ—is faithfully preached and faithfully received.

The difficulty lies with the next phrase of Article VII of the Confession of Augsburg (you have paraphrased the first part very well) "and the Sacraments admnistered rightly".

What constitutes "right administration?". And how is the ordering of ministry connected with such right and proper administration?

The uproar over the Lutheran-Episcopal "Called to Common Mission" agreement (an uproar which has not subsided) is precisely over that point: Is connection with the historic episcopate (which may or may not be the same thing as Apostolic succession, depending on one's point of view) a necessity in order to administer the Sacraments rightly and in a manner consistent with being the True Church?

40 posted on 10/12/2005 8:24:03 PM PDT by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised.)
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