Posted on 09/28/2005 4:44:24 PM PDT by NYer
You are denying the power of God's Grace. All of our works, are work's of God's Grace, a gift which is freely given to us, and which we choose to accept or not accept.
By no means ...
... it is by grace that I believe (have faith).
... it is by grace that God has saved me.Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:And ... it is by grace that I live the life which He desires me to live.Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Have you ever read Luke 18:18-30, the story of the rich young man who came to Jesus? You believe that Jesus lied and misled this man ?
No ... I do not believe that Jesus misled this man.
I do, however, believe that Jesus truthfully held up for this man a standard (i.e. perfection) ...... If thou wilt be perfect, ... go and sell ...... which the man could not possibly attain ... as evidenced by the rest of the story.
How cruel and manipulative you believe Jesus to be. The man came to him in all good faith to ask him a question. I would consider anyone who gave the kind of response you are claiming to be a complete jerk, so I don't believe that is what he meant. Basically you are saying the Bible cannot be taken literally.
It is by Grace that God allows you to have faith, just as it is by Grace that God allows you to follow his Gospel. When you follow the Gospel, you are cooperating with God's Grace. Don't take the credit yourself.
It is by Grace that God allows you to have faith, just as it is by Grace that God allows you to follow his Gospel. When you follow the Gospel, you are cooperating with God's Grace. Don't take the credit yourself.
How cruel and manipulative you believe Jesus to be. The man came to him in all good faith to ask him a question. I would consider anyone who gave the kind of response you are claiming to be a complete jerk, so I don't believe that is what he meant. Basically you are saying the Bible cannot be taken literally.
Why did Jesus have to die ?
If we could live perfect lives ... why would Jesus have to die ?
It is by Grace that God allows you to have faith, just as it is by Grace that God allows you to follow his Gospel. When you follow the Gospel, you are cooperating with God's Grace. Don't take the credit yourself.
Where have I taken credit for anything ?
I seems to me the rich man wanted Christ to enumerate works which he could do, many of them hopefully accomplished through his position and wealth, so he could achieve salvation. This works based formula was common to those who followed the Jewish Law. Under the new Covenant, which Christ proclaims, this is not possible, thereby he sets the standard so high that the man realizes that he could or would not be able to attain it. "What is impossible with men is possible with God." Through Christ's sacrifice on the Cross what is unattainable through works is attainable through a saving faith in Jesus.
"Well, soon somebody is going to come along and point out that Catholic women like you who have great, guilt free sex also wind up pregnant all the time! -:)"
Hey now!! That's by choice!!! Okay, so some of it is by choice after the fact due to an open mind. LOL! :o)
So, instead, you belong to the cult of sola scriptura?
Peter being the Rock?
Peter being given the Keys to Heaven?
Peter being the shepherd?
Peter being the one to bind?
Teaching authority of Peter?
It certainly did mine. That's why I hold a Reformed view. ;O)
Isn't it common sense? Satan is a highly intelligent demon. If he is the father of lies, he must know what the truth is. He is fully aware of the truth of the Gospel, and tries to get us to deny it through our thoughts or actions. Thus, the devil is fully aware of the testimony of Scripture. Does he trust in it? Does he live it? NO! But according to your previous definition of saving faith, you indicated that belief in the Scriptural testimony was sufficient. That is not enough of a qualification - unless you care to redefine what "belief" is
My friend ... a man's faith is the catalyst ... everything else is a result of God's response to that faith.
FAITH is no more a catalyst than DEEDS! Both come from God. God HIMSELF is the catalyst. Certainly, as Eph 2:8 says, we must have faith (a gift) before our works become "good". But BOTH come from God. Thus, God grants us grace to work and to desire to do His Will. God HIMSELF comes to us, infusing us with His Spirit, enabling us to have both faith AND deeds.
Note in Eph 2:8-10, it notes both faith and works as coming from God. He doesn't say that faith brings out good works, but that we do good works THROUGH faith - it is PRESUMED that one has faith to be able to do good works. In the Gospels, when Jesus mentions ONLY works as necessary for salvation, such as the Rich Young Man or Matthew 25 parables, it is presumed that the person to be saved had ALREADY believed in God and trusted in His promises - thus, the young rich man asks "what must I do for eternal salvation" - presuming that God was the one to provide it.
Again, faith AND works are necessary for salvation. Faith is not a catalyst, although it IS necessary. When you say that Paul teaches that Faith is a key, I take it more like this: in baseball, you must touch first base before you can move on to second base. Before you can do meritorious works that are pleasing to God, you FIRST must have faith. Romans is quite clear that we cannot EARN salvation - against the Judaizers who thought external works WITHOUT faith was good enough. Wrong! One must have faith first, but works does not necessarily follow. We rely on God's grace in BOTH cases - and respond in both cases. Back to Genesis 22, would God have considered Abram righteous if he decided "I love God, I trust in Him and His promises, but I'm not killing my son. He must be mistaken" That certainly was a legitimately possible response. As God inspired Abram to trust God, He also inspired Abram to set out on that sad three day journey to offer up his son...
By the way, I am enjoying this conversation. It has been quite stimulating.
Brother in Christ
It is the central focus of Mass. It's a shame that I have seen in the past, even some catholics (small "c") don't even recognize or believe in the "real presence."
There is nothing more beautiful to me than to pray before the Eucharist in a quiet and empty church.
Have had some of my best conversations w/ God there! ;)
I do, however, believe that Jesus truthfully held up for this man a standard (i.e. perfection) ...
... If thou wilt be perfect, ... go and sell ...
... which the man could not possibly attain ... as evidenced by the rest of the story.
Not true, brother. What about the Apostles? Hadn't they given up everything? Weren't they then "perfect" in God's eyes, under the system of grace? Discipleship means placing God first in our lives. It will not be easy: "anyone who puts their hand to the plow and looks back is not worthy". Jesus examined the man - and said he was CLOSE to the Kingdom. But he had one fault; his love of money exceeded his love of man and God. That is why the man refused. This is ABSOLUTELY NOT a fictional state of perfection that we cannot achieve. "With God, nothing is impossible", he tells the Apostles when they ask "who can be saved" after Jesus tells them that it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle!
God does not set standards that no one can achieve. The Apostles were "perfect" in that they did what God called them to do in all ways. They weren't required to PERFECTLY abide by the Law to be righteous. Joseph, Elizabeth, John the Baptist, Zechariah, all were righteous - and NOT PERFECT! Since they didn't obligate God to save them, they were not under the Law, but under Grace (using Paul's terminology). Thus, God, as our Father, expects us to be "perfect" and HOLY, as God is (not the degree, but the concept), but not to be ontologically perfect.
Jesus didn't come to provide theoretical teachings!!!!
Brother in Christ
Peter being the Rock?
A rock is not always God. Metaphors do not have to exactly match among different human authors!
Peter being given the Keys to Heaven?
Do you perceive that Jesus ACTUALLY HANDED PETER KEYS??? It refers to Peter's new authority that he would have once Christ ascended into heaven. And EVEN if you thought they were real keys, might Christ have another set? I have two sets of my house...Christ certainly didn't give up His power, He is delegating it.
Peter being the shepherd?
FEED MY SHEEP, Christ said in John's Gospel. That's what shepherds do. Are you again saying that Christ can't delegate His authority since He is not visible present on earth (we won't discuss the Eucharist, as it doesn't "talk")
Peter being the one to bind?
ALL of the Apostles, including Peter have this power. But the keeper of the keys has more responsibility. If you go on vacation and give your keys of the house to your neighbor, doesn't he have authority over your house while you are gone???
Teaching authority of Peter?
I don't understand your point on that one. Peter, as highest visible teacher of the Church, is writing pastorally to others to be careful of not twisting Paul's meaning of Scripture. He certainly isn't saying "I don't understand it!" Paul EXPLICITLY visited PETER for two weeks to make sure that Paul had the same Gospel given to the Apostles...Who do you think was learning from whom? Peter lived with Christ for 3 years!
Brother in Christ
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.