How I led Catholics Out of the Church

Catholic Educators ^ | September 2005 | Steve Wood

[siunevada]

good comeback.

And they're all 'Christians'. Ack! They're embarassments to everybody!

Well, Somebody came to heal the sick because the righteous don't need a physician. And those are some sick puppies.

[TomSmedley]

People who leave the Church in a genuine search for Christ always come back, always.

It must be nice to have God's own insight into the souls of Christians around you. Given the demonism around the cult of the BVM, this is one man who left the church, found Christ, and ain't going back.

[jo kus]

This accords with my belief that genuine faith and acceptance (i.e. in Who Jesus was/is ... and what He came to accomplish) ... will produce such works as those produced by the dying thief.

First of all, how does one KNOW they have a "genuine faith"? This is something I don't understand about the concept - if someone can retroactively say "you never had 'saving' faith", how do you EVER know you have "saving" faith (whatever that means to us) until you die? Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose of Protestant salvation theology?

Second, why are you still trying to make faith and deeds separate? They BOTH come from God! Our works AND our faith BOTH come from God. It sounds like you are trying to place more "value" in faith and relagate works to something of secondary importance. Consider Abram. When was he justified in Gen. 22, for example? Was it when Abram was told by God to sacrifice his son? Was it after the first night? Was it when he reached the base of Mt. Moriah? Was it after he laid Isaac on the altar? No - it was when he was about to deal the death blow. Thus, his justification ABSOLUTELY DEPENDED on his pleasing God with BOTH, his faith in God (that He existed and would do what He promised, even if it required God to "raise Isaac from the dead") AND the act of love of God to carry out His Divine will. It is pointless to try to separate faith and deeds.

Thus, we are justified by faith and good deeds. Both come from God - and we cooperate with His promptings. Having faith, by the way, does not automatically yield deeds. Consider Paul's many times he exhorts Christians to act out of love. If faith inexorably led to meritorious works, there would have been no need of him reminding the various communities to love and avoid sin. "Works" do not automatically come from faith, although it is presumed that one has faith before he loves.

Remember. Both faith and works are from God.

Regards

[conservonator]

It must be nice to have God's own insight into the souls of Christians around you. Given the demonism around the cult of the BVM, this is one man who left the church, found Christ, and ain't going back.

If I can make my way back, anybody can, I'll save you a seat;) BTW, I left for several of the reasons I posted, and came back kicking and screaming.

[samiam1972]

I'm Catholic and have a fantastic sex life...guilt free, even though husband is not Catholic(although he believes more than some CINO's!).

You've got to love that I read this entire thread and the first time I feel like responding is to confirm a great sex life. *sigh* It's so easy to hide behind a computer!! :o)

[servantboy777]

I'm Anglo-Catholic, some like to say Catholic light, others say Catholic done right. I find in my own experiences that many (not all) protestant denominations do not show proper respect to the sacrament of Holy Communion instituted by Christ himself. Ok, hunkering down now waiting for all the Episcopal arrows--lol.

[Quester]

First of all, how does one KNOW they have a "genuine faith"?

When one believes the testimony of the scriptures (i.e. the Apostles).

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Second, why are you still trying to make faith and deeds separate?

Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and John ... all spoke of faith and works as separate ideas, ... yet, inherently connected.

Spirutally alive christians are identified with all of any number of various characteristics ... (i.e. faith, love, works, peace, joy, humility, etc.).

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

That these are all present in the life of the christian ... does not detract from the fact that they characterize the life of christians ... in differing ways.

Though all are present ... and the gifts of God ... they are not all the same.

Nevertheless ... where there is true faith ... there will also be godly works ... and love ... and peace ... and joy ... and humility ... etc.

Likewise ... where there are godly works ... there will be true faith ... and love ... and joy ... etc.

They BOTH come from God! Our works AND our faith BOTH come from God. It sounds like you are trying to place more "value" in faith and relagate works to something of secondary importance.

Not at all.

As you say ... every good gift is from God.

I see them ... as I see the various parts of my being ... my heart ... my brain ... my intelligence ... my hands ... my eyes ... etc.

It takes all of these to make me who I am ... yet each gift is different ... and some gifts preceded (and made possible) ... others.

For instance ... my brain preceded ... and made possible ... my intelligence.

There is no prioritizing of these gifts to be made ... as all are necessary, ... but it helps me to know how they work and interact together in me.

Paul illustrates this idea (while trying to convey a different idea) ... but, nevertheless ...

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

[warsaw44]

I wasnt speaking to you. I was speaking to three FR members I respect. As your participating in the thread I didnt give a flying leap if you saw the comments or not.

[warsaw44]

Your point being what? Do you have any idea what happened within that thread? Myself and a few other FR members mistakenly thought the comments were made by a troll. We responded. We don't like trolls around here.
You joined Free Republic 19 days ago and you've begun your relationship with the site by posting a huge list of rude comments to FR members.
You've quite a chip on your shoulder.

[rollinginmybuggy]

I like how you so easily left out any mention of the complimentary posts I also made.

[rollinginmybuggy]

How do you feel about comments like the one in 159? Are those rude too?

[jo kus]

I wrote : First of all, how does one KNOW they have a "genuine faith"?

You replied : When one believes the testimony of the scriptures (i.e. the Apostles).

Brother, even the devil believes the testimony of Scripture - and rejects it! Is that saving faith? No, faith is more then intellectual belief in the apostle's testimony. Faith is intellectual belief, acceptance and trust in God. However, to be a "genuine faith", in other words, one that justifies, you will ALSO need to include good deeds, as James 2 says - "we are justified by works" {of love, not the law}. (this presumes faith in the formula. It does not exclude faith)

I wrote : They BOTH come from God! Our works AND our faith BOTH come from God. It sounds like you are trying to place more "value" in faith and relagate works to something of secondary importance.

you wrote : I see them ... as I see the various parts of my being ... my heart ... my brain ... my intelligence ... my hands ... my eyes ... etc.

OK, I misunderstood you. I don't see faith or deeds in a primary/secondary relationship as some people do. In reality, however, Paul says we are nothing without love (1 Cor 13:2). Thus, faith alone does not save. Our salvation depends on our response to God, because God grants EVERYONE the grace to come to faith and to do good deeds. Faith AND works are OUR use of God's Great Gifts. When we use those gifts He has given us, He is well pleased, and we are justified in His eyes.

Brother in Christ

[jo kus]

No, Scripture does not state that Peter is the rock upon the church was built. Peter's confession, "You are the Christ, the Son of God," is the rock.

So why are you calling Simon "Rock" then? Why does Paul call Simon "Rock"? Why do the Gospel writers call Simon "Rock"? Aren't you YOURSELF refering to a person, rather than a spoken confession?

Christ didn't say "I am rock {Peter}", but "YOU are rock {Peter}"

The Church Fathers also agree with this interpretation, even Eastern Church Fathers, such as St. John Chrysostom. It is only those who refuse to accept authority given by God who make the claim that ONLY Simon's confession is the Rock. IF the confession was the Rock, why didn't Christ call all of the Apostles in the boat of Mt 14 rocks when they called Him the "Son of God"? Or Nataniel in John 1?

Regards

[wagglebee]

I'm Catholic and have a fantastic sex life...

Well, soon somebody is going to come along and point out that Catholic women like you who have great, guilt free sex also wind up pregnant all the time! -:)

[Quester]

I wrote : First of all, how does one KNOW they have a "genuine faith"?

You replied : When one believes the testimony of the scriptures (i.e. the Apostles).

Brother, even the devil believes the testimony of Scripture - and rejects it! Is that saving faith? No, faith is more then intellectual belief in the apostle's testimony. Faith is intellectual belief, acceptance and trust in God. However, to be a "genuine faith", in other words, one that justifies, you will ALSO need to include good deeds, as James 2 says - "we are justified by works" {of love, not the law}. (this presumes faith in the formula. It does not exclude faith)

There is no scriptural teaching that the devil believes the testimony of scripture.

What the scripture does say ... is that the devil(s) believe that there is a God.

And why shouldn't they ... they lived in His presence for likely millenia.

Satan and His co-horts do not agree with God ... which would be the case if they believed the testimony of scripture.

From the beginning in the garden, ... Satan has declared that what God has said ... is a lie.

Believers have believed God ... something which God takes very seriously.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God ?

...

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

In reality, however, Paul says we are nothing without love (1 Cor 13:2). Thus, faith alone does not save. Our salvation depends on our response to God, because God grants EVERYONE the grace to come to faith and to do good deeds. Faith AND works are OUR use of God's Great Gifts. When we use those gifts He has given us, He is well pleased, and we are justified in His eyes.

My friend ... a man's faith is the catalyst ... everything else is a result of God's response to that faith.

Paul explicitly expounded (throughout his writings) ... that faith is the Key ... which unlocks the door to the life (of love, peace, goodness, joy, etc.) that God desires for us.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are saved by God's grace ... through faith ... not of works ... to perform good works.

[Quester]

Probably because there is no comparison between a mere symbolic communion that is shared in some Protestant churches with the Communion of which we partake in the Catholic church, where Christ is present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

Fortunately, ... there is comparable similarity between the typical Protestant Communion service ... and that which is demonstrated by Jesus Himself ...

Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

This is the simple model for the typical Protestant communion service.

And Jesus is, indeed, ... with us ...

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

[nickcarraway]

You are denying the power of God's Grace. All of our works, are work's of God's Grace, a gift which is freely given to us, and which we choose to accept or not accept. We choose to accept or deny God's Grace in the form of faith, or the actions Jesus instructed us to perform, and it is wrong of us to try to set up some false distinction about our acceptance of the Grace that allows us to have faith, and to follow Jesus' commandments. You cannot limit God's Grace and you should not render 75% or more of the Gospel irrelevant to our salvation.

Have you ever read Luke 18:18-30, the story of the rich young man who came to Jesus? You believe that Jesus lied and misled this man?