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To: jo kus
I wrote : First of all, how does one KNOW they have a "genuine faith"?

You replied : When one believes the testimony of the scriptures (i.e. the Apostles).

Brother, even the devil believes the testimony of Scripture - and rejects it! Is that saving faith? No, faith is more then intellectual belief in the apostle's testimony. Faith is intellectual belief, acceptance and trust in God. However, to be a "genuine faith", in other words, one that justifies, you will ALSO need to include good deeds, as James 2 says - "we are justified by works" {of love, not the law}. (this presumes faith in the formula. It does not exclude faith)


There is no scriptural teaching that the devil believes the testimony of scripture.

What the scripture does say ... is that the devil(s) believe that there is a God.

And why shouldn't they ... they lived in His presence for likely millenia.

Satan and His co-horts do not agree with God ... which would be the case if they believed the testimony of scripture.

From the beginning in the garden, ... Satan has declared that what God has said ... is a lie.

Believers have believed God ... something which God takes very seriously.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God ?

...


10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you
that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
In reality, however, Paul says we are nothing without love (1 Cor 13:2). Thus, faith alone does not save. Our salvation depends on our response to God, because God grants EVERYONE the grace to come to faith and to do good deeds. Faith AND works are OUR use of God's Great Gifts. When we use those gifts He has given us, He is well pleased, and we are justified in His eyes.

My friend ... a man's faith is the catalyst ... everything else is a result of God's response to that faith.

Paul explicitly expounded (throughout his writings) ... that faith is the Key ... which unlocks the door to the life (of love, peace, goodness, joy, etc.) that God desires for us.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We are saved by God's grace ... through faith ... not of works ... to perform good works.

298 posted on 09/29/2005 1:08:26 PM PDT by Quester (If you can't trust Jesus, ... who can you trust ?)
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To: Quester
You are denying the power of God's Grace. All of our works, are work's of God's Grace, a gift which is freely given to us, and which we choose to accept or not accept. We choose to accept or deny God's Grace in the form of faith, or the actions Jesus instructed us to perform, and it is wrong of us to try to set up some false distinction about our acceptance of the Grace that allows us to have faith, and to follow Jesus' commandments. You cannot limit God's Grace and you should not render 75% or more of the Gospel irrelevant to our salvation.

Have you ever read Luke 18:18-30, the story of the rich young man who came to Jesus? You believe that Jesus lied and misled this man?

300 posted on 09/29/2005 1:34:21 PM PDT by nickcarraway (I'm Only Alive, Because a Judge Hasn't Ruled I Should Die...)
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To: Quester
There is no scriptural teaching that the devil believes the testimony of scripture

Isn't it common sense? Satan is a highly intelligent demon. If he is the father of lies, he must know what the truth is. He is fully aware of the truth of the Gospel, and tries to get us to deny it through our thoughts or actions. Thus, the devil is fully aware of the testimony of Scripture. Does he trust in it? Does he live it? NO! But according to your previous definition of saving faith, you indicated that belief in the Scriptural testimony was sufficient. That is not enough of a qualification - unless you care to redefine what "belief" is

My friend ... a man's faith is the catalyst ... everything else is a result of God's response to that faith.

FAITH is no more a catalyst than DEEDS! Both come from God. God HIMSELF is the catalyst. Certainly, as Eph 2:8 says, we must have faith (a gift) before our works become "good". But BOTH come from God. Thus, God grants us grace to work and to desire to do His Will. God HIMSELF comes to us, infusing us with His Spirit, enabling us to have both faith AND deeds.

Note in Eph 2:8-10, it notes both faith and works as coming from God. He doesn't say that faith brings out good works, but that we do good works THROUGH faith - it is PRESUMED that one has faith to be able to do good works. In the Gospels, when Jesus mentions ONLY works as necessary for salvation, such as the Rich Young Man or Matthew 25 parables, it is presumed that the person to be saved had ALREADY believed in God and trusted in His promises - thus, the young rich man asks "what must I do for eternal salvation" - presuming that God was the one to provide it.

Again, faith AND works are necessary for salvation. Faith is not a catalyst, although it IS necessary. When you say that Paul teaches that Faith is a key, I take it more like this: in baseball, you must touch first base before you can move on to second base. Before you can do meritorious works that are pleasing to God, you FIRST must have faith. Romans is quite clear that we cannot EARN salvation - against the Judaizers who thought external works WITHOUT faith was good enough. Wrong! One must have faith first, but works does not necessarily follow. We rely on God's grace in BOTH cases - and respond in both cases. Back to Genesis 22, would God have considered Abram righteous if he decided "I love God, I trust in Him and His promises, but I'm not killing my son. He must be mistaken" That certainly was a legitimately possible response. As God inspired Abram to trust God, He also inspired Abram to set out on that sad three day journey to offer up his son...

By the way, I am enjoying this conversation. It has been quite stimulating.

Brother in Christ

315 posted on 09/29/2005 4:30:15 PM PDT by jo kus
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