How I led Catholics Out of the Church

Catholic Educators ^ | September 2005 | Steve Wood

[OpusatFR]

"The confession of a repentant protestant."

Praise God! It will be wonderful when we are all one again.

Ut Unum Sint!

[redgolum]

So this is where everybody went! I was wondering why the other threads died off.

[visually_augmented]

lastchance: "I pray for all Protestants who are holding fast to the faith as given in Scripture and affirmed in the creeds. But more and more it seems they are being put aside in the name of appeasing the secular culture."

Here, here!! I concur wholeheartedly! Our culture has taken a strong foothold in the American churches today and it is certainly a tragedy.

I would strongly suggest that this is not a reflection of the Protestant churches alone. The Roman Catholics have seen a steady decay apart from the Chruch in Rome as well. Even though there is a guise of solidarity in the RC church, there are probably as many factions as there are mainline Protestant churches (in my opinion).

I would also agree that there are many "non-denominational" Protestant churches who are off in the weeds. Without some fundamental creeds or pastoral qualifications, theology runs rampant in many of these churches.

Probably the primary cause in the churches erosion this past century is due to poor education (both secular and biblical). We have subjugated our children to government education this past century and look where we have gotten. Our public schools have now displaced the church in many ways. Regrettably, I see this even in my own thinking as I am a product of public schools. Though it is hard to break, all things are possible in Christ Jesus.

The social elites of this great nation knew exactly what they were doing when they hi-jacked the education of our children!

[visually_augmented]

jo kus: "That is one of the many questions where I had to answer - either I would be Catholic, or not Christian at all."

Is this a personal statement, or do you believe that only those in the Roman Catholic church are saved?

Interestingly, your hint of exclusivity reminds me of the Jews in the early church...

The Jewish people also thought that they had a corner on the market of salvation. "We are God's chosen people!". But as Paul so aptly preached, the gospel is for the Jew and the Gentile alike. Do you not think God can communicate the Gospel through many means? And many churches? You seem to have placed a very limited definition to God's Church. You have defined God's Church to be the RC Church. I am convinced that the Church of God, of which Christ is the head, is the entire body of true believers - regardless of which doors they pass through on Sunday morning (or perhaps Saturday evening, in your case).

Through the fist thousand years of the church, it does seem that the Roman Catholic Church was akin to the Jews of the Old Testament. God preserved his word and teachings through the RC church. But the reformation (in my humble opinion) was very much like a second Pentacost. It was a renewing of the Holy Spirit and His role in the lives of believers. Many of the RC Church forget the promises made whole at Pentacost that Christ will head the church and God's Spirit will guide it.

[visually_augmented]

SampleMan: "You must indeed be special to have such a special window on God. Are there any others at the window or is it just you?"

I will not presume to judge Mr. Wood's soul, merely his theology...

And by the way, I actually do have a special window on God - it is called the Holy Bible. Though I suppose it's not so special in the sense that it is widely proliferated.

[netmilsmom]

>>This isn't a "Catholic" thread<<

You're right. I never said it was.
However, we get it so often on threads that are, we get on edge.
The same old tired cliches.

Now many of us just laugh. Take a look at some of the posts here.

[TomSmedley]

That is probably quite true. However, it still relies on the self and one's own rationale. Protestantism has taken the mystery out of the faith - everything must be rationalized and reasoned - otherwise, it isn't so. At least that is the feeling I get when discussing with Protestants.

That was my first impression of Calvinism, too. A smug attitude of "see how right I am, see how wrong you are." Let's face it, we're still struggling with the excretia of the "englightenment."

One hopeful sign is the proliferation of churches that combine traditional calvinism (i.e. -- rooted in historic Christianity) with charismatic gifts (relevent to people today). My church, King's Park International Church, belongs to one of these hybrid denominations, Every Nation International.

Although there are barriers to my ever going "back to Rome," I cherish my fellow Christians in that communion, and rejoice in the work of scholars like Luke TImothy Johnson, Leon Podles, and E. Michael Jones.

[Pyro7480]

About as much as I like what IRA terrorists did in the name of the Roman Catholic Church.

The IRA are Marxists, and their ideology and methods are opposed to that of the Church.

[jo kus]

jo kus: "That is one of the many questions where I had to answer - either I would be Catholic, or not Christian at all."

Is this a personal statement, or do you believe that only those in the Roman Catholic church are saved?

I believe that this is where logic, if unimpeded by bias, eventually must lead someone. The Bible didn't fall out of heaven - it came to us from men who claimed it came from God. Do you trust that or not? It says nothing about whether a person will be saved or not, because the Catholic Church itself does not demand that a person be a registered Catholic to go to heaven. The Church claims that it alone has the FULLNESS of revelation - the accurate interpretation of Scriptures and the life-giving sacraments where we meet Christ. This does not mean that other Christian faiths do not have partial truths - most Protestants that I know believe in the Trinity and the saving works of Jesus Christ and the importance of Baptism.

The Church teaches that Baptism is the first step towards salvation. However, the Church ALSO says that one can be invincibly ignorant - and not be baptized - but still be saved. Baptism is the ORDINARY way of entering into the Body of Christ. However, God is not bound by the sacraments. The Spirit blows where it will. And since God has written His law on the hearts of even Gentiles (Romans 1 and 2), they CAN make an effort to please Him, based on what they know. God does not expect a person to come to Jesus as a Christian if that person had never heard of Christianity during his life!

As to the Jews, Paul says that the Old Covenant was irrevocable. God has a plan for the Jews. Unfortunately, the polemics that you refer to in the early Church clouded this view. Certainly, the Gospel is better than the Law! So we should still continue to evangelize the Jews. And their refusal to convert during Paul's time must have been frustrating, as the Church saw itself as the continuation - no - the fulfillment - of Judaism.

You have defined God's Church to be the RC Church. I am convinced that the Church of God, of which Christ is the head, is the entire body of true believers - regardless of which doors they pass through on Sunday morning (or perhaps Saturday evening, in your case).

No I haven't. Of all Catholics on this forum, I would likely be the last person to say that! The Church subsists entirely within the Roman Catholic Church - but that does NOT exclude other Christian communities of being part of the Body of Christ. Another way of putting it - to the degree that you are Catholic, you are in the Body. Catholic in belief, practice, and Baptism. Being Baptized is a Catholic ritual! Believing in the Trinity is a Catholic belief. Reading the Scripture (including the NT) is reading a Catholic book. Following Jesus Christ is a Catholic way of life. This is historical fact. It has admittedly been watered down by some Protestant denominations, but Protestants are more Catholic than they realize!

But the reformation (in my humble opinion) was very much like a second Pentacost

The Church is CONSTANTLY being reformed. The Protestant reformation began as just another of the Spirit's efforts to reform the human portion of the Body. Luther was correct and his efforts initially were very much in need, such as his effort to redirect some members of the Church away from over-emphasis of Apostolic Tradition above the Scriptures, or undo emphasis on doing good deeds as opposed to faith and its value. Where the Protestant Reformation went wrong was going too far with "Sola Scriptura" and "Sola Fide", which were NEVER taught by the Church - they were innovations, man-made means that circumvented Christ's authoritative Church. Thus, I agree that Luther had good intentions, but NO ONE justify leaving God's Church and begin anew. That was his mistake - and unfortunately, Christianity has fractured since.

Brother in Christ

[jo kus]

One hopeful sign is the proliferation of churches that combine traditional calvinism (i.e. -- rooted in historic Christianity) with charismatic gifts (relevent to people today).

I suppose that is a step forward. Often times, it seems to be one or the other. Either people will rely on faith at the total ignoring of logic and reason, or go the opposite direction, over-relying on logic and forgeting about the Spirit's gifts and mystery.

Brother in Christ

[Quester]

And do you posit that God forces us into heaven? Reconsider the Prodigal Son in Luke 15. Did the Father kick the son out, or did the son leave ?

" ... nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:39.

ONLY WE can keep ourselves out of heaven. ONLY WE can lose our inheritance - just like a child can disinherit himself from his parents.

Of course God does not force us into heaven ... but it is a rather major step to disinherit oneself from God.

Something more than say, ... missing a weekend's Mass.

If one of your children missed the annual family reunion, ... would you consider them disinherited ?

[NYer]

I am convinced that the Church of God, of which Christ is the head, is the entire body of true believers - regardless of which doors they pass through on Sunday morning (or perhaps Saturday evening, in your case).

Where is that in the Bible? According to the one I read ......

Scripture reveals the Catholic Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).

[jo kus]

Of course God does not force us into heaven ... but it is a rather major step to disinherit oneself from God.

Something more than say, ... missing a weekend's Mass.

Unfortunately, some people don't know what the Church teaches - to include priests.

To separate one from God's union is to commit a mortal sin. Missing Mass is NOT necessarily a mortal sin. A mortal sin must be a serious offense, the person must KNOW it is a serious offense, and he must do it with full intentions anyways.

There are too many variables for one person to judge whether another missing a Mass is considered a mortal sin. I have cringed when I hear some Catholics (including priests) say this.

If one of your children missed the annual family reunion, ... would you consider them disinherited ?

It is not important of what I think, but how that person feels about missing the reunion. I would love the person whether they showed up or not. But if they separated themselves from the family without any good excuse - that they willingly knew that they were wanted there but refused to go, then THEY are disinheriting THEMSELVES, I am not disinheriting them. Again, apply this analogy to what God does. WE disinherited ourselves when we sin mortally (as 1 John says).

Brother in Christ

[Quester]

Protestantism has taken the mystery out of the faith - everything must be rationalized and reasoned - otherwise, it isn't so.

The mystery for the the Protestant is that God desires authentic relationship (and daily fellowship) with him/her.

In this we mirror David the king ...

Psalms 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Rather like in the garden, ... when God came and visited with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening.

[NYer]

There is nothing more beautiful to me than to pray before the Eucharist in a quiet and empty church.

Prayer of St. Faustina before the Eucharist

I adore You, Lord and Creator, hidden in the Most Blessed Sacrament. I adore You for all the works of Your hands, that reveal to me so much wisdom, goodness and mercy, O Lord. You have spread so much beauty over the earth and it tells me about Your beauty, even though these beautiful things are but a faint reflection of You, incomprehensible Beauty. And although You have hidden Yourself and concealed Your beauty, my eye, enlightened by faith, reaches You and my soul recognizes its Creator, its Highest Good, and my heart is completely immersed in prayer of adoration. My Lord and Creator, Your goodness encourages me to converse with You. Your mercy abolishes the chasm which separates the Creator from the creature. To converse with You, O Lord, is the delight of my heart. In You I find everything that my heart could desire. Here You light illumines my mind, enabling it to know You more and more deeply. Here streams of graces flow down upon my heart. Here my soul draws eternal life. O my Lord and Creator, You alone, beyond all these gifts, give Your own self to me and unite Yourself intimately with Your miserable creature. O Christ, let my greatest delight be to see You loved and Your praise and glory proclaimed, especially the honor of Your mercy. O Christ, let me glorify Your goodness and mercy to the last moment of my life, with every drop of my blood and every beat of my heart. Would that I be transformed into a hymn of adoration of You. When I find myself on my deathbed, may the last beat of my heart be a loving hymn glorifying Your unfathomable mercy. Amen.

[al_c]

Steve Wood is the founder of St. Joseph's Covenant Keepers (SJCK), a dynamic apostolate for Catholic men. For more information on SJCK, or to find out about men's conferences in your area, please call 1-800-705-6131 or (941) 764-7725.

Or go to dads.org

[Quester]

If one of your children missed the annual family reunion, ... would you consider them disinherited ?

It is not important of what I think, but how that person feels about missing the reunion. I would love the person whether they showed up or not. But if they separated themselves from the family without any good excuse - that they willingly knew that they were wanted there but refused to go, then THEY are disinheriting THEMSELVES, I am not disinheriting them. Again, apply this analogy to what God does. WE disinherited ourselves when we sin mortally (as 1 John says).

What I believe I hear you saying ... (and, please do correct me if I am mistaken ...) ... is that it is not so much the act (i.e. of missing Mass) ... as it is the attitude of the heart.

So ... it would seem that it will not so much be our catalogue of works which will be judged by God in our time of passing from this world, ... but rather,

... the attitude of our hearts (i.e. whether inclined toward God or not) ... which will be the deciding factor per our livng eternally with Him (or not).

With such I would agree.

Certainly it was the heart attitudes which distinguished the two thieves at the crucifixion ... rather than their catalogue of works (which one would assume were rather criminal).

[jo kus]

The mystery for the the Protestant is that God desires authentic relationship (and daily fellowship) with him/her.

That is not "mystery". What is mysterious is realizing that God is a Trinity of Persons, and realizing that we cannot understand it - but accept it as God's Revelation of Himself and that He is a communion of love that He wants us to share in. How do we share with God???

Or how God comes to us during the Mass, presenting Himself in the form of bread and wine as a visible sign of His love for us. We can't explain it, but we accept and believe it. How and why does He come as bread and wine? How does heaven push into our earthly time? Oh the mystery of your great love, oh Lord!

That is what I mean by mystery.

Brother in Christ

[Rutles4Ever]

LOL! boogada-boogada-boogada! Scary Catholic Church!
oooooo!

You left the Catholic church for a lightweight carny' barker like Rick Jones?

If Luther were around to read fortune cookies, would he add "alone" or "in bed" to the end of every prediction? Oh wait - the Bible only outlaws adding words to Scripture! Well it's a good thing Luther didn't add words to scripture like "alone" or start throwing out books at whim. He'd be in a lot of trouble according to St. John the Apostle.