Posted on 08/01/2005 8:16:45 PM PDT by buckeyesrule
And that is - to a large degree - my point. The Bible presupposes the reality of the (limited) free will of man.
I would agree that man has some (limited) free will. (e.g. God gave Adam the right to name the animals.) But does man have the right to choose whether to go to heaven or not? Scripture also states:
or
or
Along with believing and repenting the scriptures also teach that the Father must draw us and that we are unwilling to come on our own accord. There is no other way to interpret these verses. These verses cant be ignored but must be harmonized.
I think our call to action is far more than an illusion but is a genuine responsibility and privilege for us to act as Gods ambassadors on earth similar to prayer (God knowing what we need before we pray). Please remember Ester. When faced with the dilemma of doing God will or not, Mordecai rightfully told her that should she keep silent help will arise from another and her fathers house would perish. (Ester 4:14) Gods will will not be stopped. We, as Christians, have the honor to participate in His will and if we "choose" not to He'll get someone else. But perhaps that was all the motivation Ester needed? eh???
There is no doubt that predestination & election are Biblical doctrines. But the mystery is that humans can really and truly accept or reject Christ and that they will receive the ensuing consequences is also a Biblical doctrine. To me this is as much a mystery as how Jesus could be fully God and fully man at the same time.
To me the mystery is why God chooses some for heaven and some to hell. Otherwise we would have to accept the premise that man will always make the perfect choice since the Book of Life has already been written. It is my personal belief, as incomprehensible as this may seem that those who are destined for hell want to be there and would be miserable in heaven. Consequently, everyone is going to end up exactly where they should be; God is the placement authority and it will be perfect. People are not going to go to hell because they made a poor choice in their lives or because they didnt get to hear the gospel message since they were stuck on some forgotten island. That wouldnt be very loving of God.
He never healed those who didn't want it or those who asked him to leave.
You overlook several stories in scripture. One is the healing of the man with the withered arm on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:10) or the man blinded from birth (John 9:1). It could be argued that they wanted to be healed but there are no scriptural indications this was so. In fact, with the man with the withered arm it appears our Lord Jesus was trying to teach a valuable lesson to the Pharisees. In the case of the man blinded from birth our Lord Jesus stated the reason for the healing was so the works of God might be displayed in him (John 9:3).
Have you ever taken a look at the purpose of election in the OT?
The OT is a perfect case of election. There is no greater truth than God electing (choosing) the nation of Israel over all other nations. It's purpose can only be looked upon as the redemption of mankind.
I understand your point.
The total of God's wisdom is not within our human abilities to grasp. There is a divine paradox at the center of God's revealed will that we simply are not able to unravel.
So what do we do? We go to Scripture, being led by the Holy Ghost to all the truth God wishes to impart to us.
The Reformed start by acknowledging God's defining ordination of everything that occurs in His creation. All knowledge is given as a result of this central reality.
Yes, all men are fallen and convicted of Original Sin through Adam's fatal transgression against God. No man is capable of righteousness until God regenerates his dead heart. Like Lazarus, we are reborn by His hand alone.
And yes, God ordained the names of the elect from before the foundation of the world, based upon nothing worthy in themselves (because all men are equally fallen), based solely upon the good pleasure of His decree.
One hundred percent of the elect will one day be led to faith. And 100% of the reprobate will die without His blessing of salvation.
And all who receive Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be saved. No one is prevented from believing. No one is denied faith. All who believe are saved because that is the measure God gave us for recognizing salvation. By our fruits are we known.
These are the absolute truths of God. If God wanted something different, it would be different.
Our job is to understand what has been illuminated by the Holy Ghost, and to accept what still remains dimly lit.
All men deserve hell. That's just the way God ordered His creation. Adam fell. We sin. It is our nature to rebuke Him who created us.
From before time He chose some to redeem with the blood of His Son. Saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. That's just the way it is.
"Just why God saves some and leaves others to perish is a mystery. It is not unjust, for God owes no man anything. Reprobation is an act of God's justice just as predestination is an act of His grace. In both God manifests His virtues."
"The nature of the Divine goodness is not only to open to those who knock. but also to cause them to knock and ask." -- AUGUSTINE
Most of us Calvinists were faithful Arminians for decades. We are presumptuous enough to believe we actually know what Arminians are thinking and feeling when they cry "robot!" in the face of God's sovereignty. We hear the echo of our own voices once protesting that very same thing.
But it is different now. The idea that the Holy Ghost is doing ALL the work of conversion spoke to our hearts. The idea that God knows exactly what He's doing and accomplishes everything He desires resounded in our minds. The promise that Christ will lose none of His sheep comforted all fears.
Everything, including the apparent paradoxes, are under the explicit and perfect directive of God, for His glory.
And life is now much clearer, sturdier and joyous because we know our faith is of Him who grants it, and not we who choose it.
"...the testimony of the Spirit is more excellent than all reason. For God alone is a fit witness to himself in His Word, so also the Word will not find acceptance in men's hearts before it is sealed by the inward testimony of the Spirit. The same Spirit, therefore, who has spoken through the mouths of the prophets must penetrate into our hearts to persuade us that they faithfully proclaim what has been divinely commanded
By this power we are drawn and inflamed, knowingly and willingly, to obey him, yet also more vitally and more effectively than by mere human willing or knowing." -- JOHN CALVIN
No, I'm not trying to prove you wrong. Just trying to understand your point. You stated in post 928:
What precisely are you saying with the creature "having been so gifted by God"? Are you saying all creatures are so gifted with faith or some creatures are so gifted with faith?
What precisely are you saying with the creature "having been so gifted by God"? Are you saying all creatures are so gifted with faith or some creatures are so gifted with faith?
I am simply saying that any man or woman ... who has been granted the gift of faith by God ... can accept God's offer of salvation ... all within the scope of God's predestined will.
O-henry thanks you!
Corin Stormhands thinks O-Henry is vey transparent.
Why thank you! O has nothing to hide, he just loves Jesus and want's everyone to make the right decision!
The language of your passage in Deut 30:15 is God instruction to the nation of Israel. It is not to individual salvation. And, as Deut 30:1 starts out, God states that and you call them to mind in all nations where the Lord your God has banished you . God knew the hearts of men is evil and they would turn aside from his path. Yet He still gave them their instructions NOT to turn aside.
The problem comes in when Armenians try to neuter Calvinist verses or Calvinists try to neuter Armenian verses. I believe that both opinions should be held simultaneously in the recognition that it is a mystery that is currently unsolvable.
Either God alone acts in man salvation or man makes a choice. Unfortunately there is no middle ground. The two views are opposites. It was never the original teaching of the western church and it was an instigator of the Reformation. And church history shows these two views to be the cause for much struggle in the church. At the risk of interjecting my anecdotic Calvinistic experience into the conversation, while Ive believed for over 30 years that man could repent and turn aside I believe this to be in error.
One view is right; the other view is wrong. And scripture teaches only one view. Which view a person subscribes to affects their interpretation of scripture. If a person cannot choose which to believe, theyll begin to find it impossible to understand fundamental truths such as the purpose of prayer (Is it to ask God for His divine intervention or to thank Him for His sovereign control?) or evangelism (Is it our responsibility to present a message so that people can come to know Christ or is it Gods responsibility and we are to be obedient?). The outcome of these beliefs affects our understanding and approach to God.
There are countless examples throughout both the Old and New Testament of Gods divine choice and those who find favor with the Lord for some unknown reason. God chose John the Baptist, Paul, David, Jeremiah, all before they were born according to scripture. There are those such as Moses and Abraham who were chosen before they repented. Others such as Balaam or Belshazzar were never given the chance to repent. And there are some such as Abimelech that God gave an opportunity to repent even though they were not believers. Moreover we know just from simple observation that some people throughout the ages have never heard the gospel or been given the chance for repentance. Generally when this is brought up the conversation leads to God saving people in multiple ways. Under this scenario faith does not come from hearing.
I dont claim to have the answer to this riddle but it is a fact of scripture that God works specifically with people-all people in different ways. His redemption is simply based upon His good pleasure and He saves people as He so wills. The call to repent is a universal call but God never expects an answer for He knows mans heart and the outcome.
. But look at this... Israel was chosen - chosen to be singularly blessed by God should the keep His laws and statutes The purpose of their elections was not their salvation to the EXCLUSION of others, but that through them others nations might be blessed and drawn into the light of Jehovah.
I would maintain that God knew Israel as a nation would fail Him. The problem with the old covenant was that man could not be obedient to God. God knew this and said as much clear back with Moses. Given a choice unregenerate man will always choose evil no matter what his intentions. I would maintain that the old covenant had to come first because man would never have understood that God must change mans heart. We cannot will to follow God on our own because we are evil.
But God promised:
This, of course was fulfilled at Pentecost. The ONLY reason we are not like the nation of Israel in the OT is simply because of Gods Holy Spirit which indwells all believers. Any light of God that we so shine is simply because of Him. Not because of us. And we know right from wrong because of His Spirit-something our old covenant counterparts didnt have. Christianity is sustained because God sustains us internally. All nations are indeed blessed and drawn to the light of Jehovah through our Lord Jesus. This was always Gods plan.
Thanks for the clarification. The only part that I seem to be confused by is that if God gave man a "gift of faith" wouldn't that mean man would accept God's offering of salvation since he has faith?
"I am simply saying that any man or woman ... who has been granted the gift of faith by God ... can accept God's offer of salvation ... all within the scope of God's predestined will."
Thanks for the clarification. The only part that I seem to be confused by is that if God gave man a "gift of faith" wouldn't that mean man would accept God's offering of salvation since he has faith?
Such would appear to be a reasonable inference, ... however ...
I note that Paul says, in Romans 12:3, that "God has granted to every man the measure of faith" ...
... and that James makes a clear distinction between a living faith and a dead faith.James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Thus, ... the answer is not not so clearly established for me.
Conversely, God does not give faith to everyone and Paul makes this contrast:
Your verses in James are consistent with Paul belief. James simply state that if there is no evidence of works in your life and your attitude is off base then you have to question your faith.
Paul states the same thing:
To me its clear that unbelievers do not have faith in God. Believers, OTOH are to constantly examine themselves to see if they are in the faith and walking with God's Holy Spirit.
"No man comes to me, unless my Father draw him - No man can believe in Christ, unless God give him power: he draws us first, by good desires. Not by compulsion, not by laying the will under any necessity; but by the strong and sweet, yet still resistible, motions of his heavenly grace."
God is the ultimate gentleman (if you will bear with me in this figure of speech). He never "forces" Himself on anyone. In all the cases I know of, Jesus always asked a person if they wanted to be healed (with the exception of cases like Lazarus - in which case others asked for him). He never healed those who didn't want it or those who asked him to leave. It seems that he respected the privilege of man to accept or reject.
The basic problem is that you choose to use the word FORCE . Not one of us felt "FORCED". We ran with joy into the Fathers arms .
Jesus said one must be BORN AGAIN (regenerated ....Quickened...) to SEE the kingdom of God.
One can not desire what they can not see or hear. One can not desire Christ if one has a carnal heart and not the New Heart He has promised us.
Men will always choose according to their preferences. When God opens our eyes and ears and understanding to the gospel THAT becomes our preference and that is what we choose .
I just will say the sheep follow the master and come at His call because they know His voice , they know him and he knows them .
That being said, I am amazed at the pride of men and the way some think that to have God choosing them takes something away from their independence , as if that was their most precious possession.
I view being a tool selected and used by God as a great honor, not a curse. I pity men that think their salvation only has value if they procured it for themselves. .
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
The gospel is repent and believe . They presented him with the Gospel. No one has said otherwise. The question is where does one get the ability, not to ask the question, but to repent and believe
That question was answered in the preceding verses
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul
It is all GOD
Yep, and who does that ability make the god? Man or God?
My friend, we hold much in common , and I have come to respect you greatly over the time I have "known" you
I know this sound very insulting, but consider the merits of the argument. If one can frustrate the will or ordained plans of God who is god in that situation?
The argument to me is can men do what God has commanded without His intervention?
As an example, can you do as God commanded and keep the whole law and to love your neighbor as your self or to love God with all your heart?
Of course the answer is no, what then makes man think he can keep the command to repent and believe without Gods intervention?
Having come from a Arminian church I know I never really considered the implication of saying that I chose Christ until the full implications of that were pointed out to me.
Quester do you want for yourself what God does not have ? Even God does not have a free will. He can not violate His nature, and neither can man.
You know one more thought on this topic , man wants to choose God as his RIGHT but then refuses the same right to God to chose with whom He will spend eternity
God Quickens your heart and turns your affections to Himself, is that an awful thing, to be so loved by your creator?
Mom, ... my friend in the Lord.
I have limited time, right now, so I'll just take the time to say the following ...
Whatever I am, ... I am only as God has created me.
There is no hope that I could ever do anything which He has not enabled me to do.
I have been blessed in that He has brought me to love and trust in Him.
I do not know exactly how He has brought this to pass ... and, at this moment, ... I do not need to know.
Of course it is all of Him, for He is the source of all.
There is no question of who is, ultimately, in control.
There are some other thoughts percolating in my God-given brain ... but, I'll have to share them at some future point in time.
Till then ... may God bless and keep you and your friends.
Though we do not always agree, ... I do enjoy discoursing with you.
I have no doubt of your love of the Lord , that is why i love talking to ya Quest..
God Bless ya !
Yes sir,
Drop by and say hi !
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