”My friend, such a concept must not be totally outside of the realms of possibility. Look at the language of the following passage... The language of your passage in Deut 30:15 is God instruction to the nation of Israel. It is not to individual salvation. And, as Deut 30:1 starts out, God states that “…and you call them to mind in all nations where the Lord your God has banished you…”. God knew the hearts of men is evil and they would turn aside from his path. Yet He still gave them their instructions NOT to turn aside.
”The problem comes in when Armenians try to neuter Calvinist verses or Calvinists try to neuter Armenian verses. I believe that both opinions should be held simultaneously in the recognition that it is a mystery that is currently unsolvable.”
Either God alone acts in man salvation or man makes a choice. Unfortunately there is no middle ground. The two views are opposites. It was never the original teaching of the western church and it was an instigator of the Reformation. And church history shows these two views to be the cause for much struggle in the church. At the risk of interjecting my anecdotic Calvinistic experience into the conversation, while I’ve believed for over 30 years that man could repent and turn aside I believe this to be in error.
One view is right; the other view is wrong. And scripture teaches only one view. Which view a person subscribes to affects their interpretation of scripture. If a person cannot choose which to believe, they’ll begin to find it impossible to understand fundamental truths such as the purpose of prayer (Is it to ask God for His divine intervention or to thank Him for His sovereign control?) or evangelism (Is it our responsibility to present a message so that people can come to know Christ or is it God’s responsibility and we are to be obedient?). The outcome of these beliefs affects our understanding and approach to God.
There are countless examples throughout both the Old and New Testament of God’s divine choice and those who find favor with the Lord for some unknown reason. God chose John the Baptist, Paul, David, Jeremiah, all before they were born according to scripture. There are those such as Moses and Abraham who were chosen before they repented. Others such as Balaam or Belshazzar were never given the chance to repent. And there are some such as Abimelech that God gave an opportunity to repent even though they were not believers. Moreover we know just from simple observation that some people throughout the ages have never heard the gospel or been given the chance for repentance. Generally when this is brought up the conversation leads to God saving people in multiple ways. Under this scenario faith does not come from hearing.
I don’t claim to have the answer to this riddle but it is a fact of scripture that God works specifically with people-all people in different ways. His redemption is simply based upon His good pleasure and He saves people as He so wills. The call to repent is a universal call but God never expects an answer for He knows man’s heart and the outcome.
”…. But look at this... Israel was chosen - chosen to be singularly blessed by God should the keep His laws and statutes …The purpose of their elections was not their salvation to the EXCLUSION of others, but that through them others nations might be blessed and drawn into the light of Jehovah.”
I would maintain that God knew Israel as a nation would fail Him. The problem with the old covenant was that man could not be obedient to God. God knew this and said as much clear back with Moses. Given a choice unregenerate man will always choose evil no matter what his intentions. I would maintain that the old covenant had to come first because man would never have understood that God must change man’s heart. We cannot will to follow God on our own because we are evil.
But God promised:
“…I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. Eze 36:27
This, of course was fulfilled at Pentecost. The ONLY reason we are not like the nation of Israel in the OT is simply because of God’s Holy Spirit which indwells all believers. Any light of God that we so shine is simply because of Him. Not because of us. And we know right from wrong because of His Spirit-something our old covenant counterparts didn’t have. Christianity is sustained because God sustains us internally. All nations are indeed blessed and drawn to the light of Jehovah through our Lord Jesus. This was always God’s plan.
(I hope I'm not testing your patience in this discussion. I'm really benefiting from it greatly. Feel free to let it drop if you think it has run it's course.)
***It was never the original teaching of the western church and it was an instigator of the Reformation. And church history shows these two views to be the cause for much struggle in the church.***
By "it" do you refer to a synthesis of the two? Your point about the historic position of the (western) Church is important. Do you know what the general consensus of the early fathers was? I do not. It did appear from my Orthodox resources that free-will was accepted.
This is from St. John Chrysostom's commentary on the Gospel of John, Chapter 6, verse 27:
But perhaps some one will say, "If all that the Father giveth, and whomsoever He shall draw, cometh unto Thee, if none can come unto Thee except it be given him from above, then those to whom the Father giveth not are free from any blame or charges." These are mere words and pretenses. For we require our own deliberate choice also, because whether we will be taught is a matter of choice, and also whether we will believe. And in this place, by the" which the Father giveth Me," He declareth nothing else than that "the believing on Me is no ordinary thing, nor one that cometh of human reasonings, but needeth a revelation from above, and a well-ordered soul to receive that revelation." And the, "He that cometh to Me shall be saved," meaneth that he shall be greatly cared for. "For on account of these," He saith, "I came, and took upon Me the flesh, and entered into(5) the form of a servant."
Verses 44 and 45:
Ver. 44. "No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw Him."
The Manichaeans spring upon these words, saying, "that nothing lies in our own power"; yet the expression showeth that we are masters of our will. "For if a man cometh to Him," saith some one, "what need is there of drawing?" But the words do not take away our free will, but show that we greatly need assistance. And He implieth not an unwilling(2) comer, but one enjoying much succor. Then He showeth also the manner in which He draweth; for that men may not, again, form any material idea of God, He addeth,
Ver. 46. "Not that any man hath seen God,(3) save He which is of God, He hath seen the Father."
"How then," saith some one, "doth the Father draw?" This the Prophet explained of old, when he proclaimed beforehand, and said,
Ver. 45. "They shall all be taught of God." (Isa. 54:13.)
Seest thou the dignity of faith, and that not of men nor by man, but by God Himself they shall(4) learn this? And to make this assertion credible, He referred them to their prophets. "If then 'all shall be taught of God,' how is it that some shah not believe?" Because the words are spoken of the greater number. Besides, the prophecy meaneth not absolutely all, but all that have the will. For the teacher sitteth ready to impart what he hath to all, and pouring forth his instruction unto all.
Also a very interesting article on this topic:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/exact_freewill.aspx Concerning Free Will and Predestination
by St. John of Damascus
"...We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that predetermination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge. But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience. For already God in His prescience has prejudged all things in accordance with His goodness and justice."
*** One view is right; the other view is wrong. And scripture teaches only one view.***
Yes, but what I'm seeing is that the Scripture appears to teach both views. You are correct when you state "Which view a person subscribes to affects their interpretation of scripture." If we come to Scripture with our presuppositions but our presuppositions are suppose to be derived from Scripture then are we not in somewhat of a quandary?
***There are countless examples throughout both the Old and New Testament of God’s divine choice and those who find favor with the Lord for some unknown reason. God chose John the Baptist, Paul, David, Jeremiah, all before they were born according to scripture.***
In each of these cases the person was chosen in order to bring God's blessing to others - not simply fro their own personal enjoyment of salvation to the exclusion of others.
*** I would maintain that God knew Israel as a nation would fail Him.***
Yes, but did it HAVE to be that way? Was there another way (like Esther)? That, to my mind, is the mystery of Jesus' weeping over Jerusalem.
***Given a choice unregenerate man will always choose evil no matter what his intentions. ***
I can not fully agree with this. Look at the following verse...
"At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.
About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, "Cornelius." And he stared at him in terror and said, "What is it, Lord?" And he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God."
Cornelius was unregenerate.
Your thoughts?