Posted on 08/01/2005 8:16:45 PM PDT by buckeyesrule
Does God So Love the World?
by: John MacArthur
Love is the best known but least understood of all God's attributes. Almost everyone who believes in God these days sees Him as a God of love. I have even met agnostics who are quite certain that if God exists, He must be benevolent, compassionate, and loving.
All those things are infinitely true about God, of course, but not in the way most people think. Because of the influence of modern liberal theology, many suppose that God's love and goodness ultimately nullify His righteousness, justice, and holy wrath. They envision God as a benign heavenly grandfather-tolerant, affable, lenient, permissive, devoid of any real displeasure over sin, who without consideration of His holiness will benignly pass over sin and accept people as they are.
Liberal thinking about God's love also permeates much of evangelicalism today. We have lost the reality of God's wrath. We have disregarded His hatred for sin. The God most evangelicals now describe is all-loving and not at all angry. We have forgotten that "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31). We do not believe in that kind of God anymore.
We must recapture some of the holy terror that comes with a right understanding of God's righteous anger. We need to remember that God's wrath does burn against impenitent sinners (Psalm 38:1-3). That reality is the very thing that makes His love so amazing. Only those who see themselves as sinners in the hands of an angry God can fully appreciate the magnitude and wonder of His love.
In that regard, our generation is surely at a greater disadvantage than any previous age. We have been force-fed the doctrines of self-esteem for so long that most people don't really view themselves as sinners worthy of divine wrath. On top of that, religious liberalism, humanism, evangelical compromise, and ignorance of the Scriptures have all worked against a right understanding of who God is. Ironically, in an age that conceives of God as wholly loving, altogether devoid of wrath, few people really understand what God's love is all about.
How we address the misconception of the present age is crucial. We must not respond to an overemphasis on divine love by denying that God is love. Our generation's imbalanced view of God cannot be corrected by an equal imbalance in the opposite direction, a very real danger in some circles. I'm deeply concerned about a growing trend I've noticed-particularly among people committed to the biblical truth of God's sovereignty and divine election. Some of them flatly deny that God in any sense loves those whom He has not chosen for salvation.
I am troubled by the tendency of some-often young people newly infatuated with Reformed doctrine-who insist that God cannot possibly love those who never repent and believe. I encounter that view, it seems, with increasing frequency.
The argument inevitably goes like this: Psalm 7:11 tells us "God is angry with the wicked every day." It seems reasonable to assume that if God loved everyone, He would have chosen everyone unto salvation. Therefore, God does not love the non-elect. Those who hold this view often go to great lengths to argue that John 3:16 cannot really mean God loves the whole world.
Perhaps the best-known argument for this view is found the unabridged edition of an otherwise excellent book, The Sovereignty of God, by A. W. Pink. Pink wrote, "God loves whom He chooses. He does not love everybody." [1] He further argued that the word world in John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world…") "refers to the world of believers (God's elect), in contradistinction from 'the world of the ungodly.'"[2]
Pink was attempting to make the crucial point that God is sovereign in the exercise of His love. The gist of his argument is certainly valid: It is folly to think that God loves all alike, or that He is compelled by some rule of fairness to love everyone equally. Scripture teaches us that God loves because He chooses to love (Deuteronomy 7:6-7), because He is loving (God is love, 1 John 4:8), not because He is under some obligation to love everyone the same.
Nothing but God's own sovereign good pleasure compels Him to love sinners. Nothing but His own sovereign will governs His love. That has to be true, since there is certainly nothing in any sinner worthy of even the smallest degree of divine love.
Unfortunately, Pink took the corollary too far. The fact that some sinners are not elected to salvation is no proof that God's attitude toward them is utterly devoid of sincere love. We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners. Who can deny that those mercies flow out of God's boundless love? It is evident that they are showered even on unrepentant sinners.
We must understand that it is God's very nature to love. The reason our Lord commanded us to love our enemies is "in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:45). Jesus clearly characterized His Father as One who loves even those who purposefully set themselves at enmity against Him.
At this point, however, an important distinction must be made: God loves believers with a particular love. God's love for the elect is an infinite, eternal, saving love. We know from Scripture that this great love was the very cause of our election (Ephesians 2:4). Such love clearly is not directed toward all of mankind indiscriminately, but is bestowed uniquely and individually on those whom God chose in eternity past.
But from that, it does not follow that God's attitude toward those He did not elect must be unmitigated hatred. Surely His pleading with the lost, His offers of mercy to the reprobate, and the call of the gospel to all who hear are all sincere expressions of the heart of a loving God. Remember, He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but tenderly calls sinners to turn from their evil ways and live.
Reformed theology has historically been the branch of evangelicalism most strongly committed to the sovereignty of God. At the same time, the mainstream of Reformed theologians have always affirmed the love of God for all sinners. John Calvin himself wrote regarding John 3:16, "[Two] points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish." [3]
Calvin continues to explain the biblical balance that both the gospel invitation and "the world" that God loves are by no means limited to the elect alone. He also recognized that God's electing, saving love is uniquely bestowed on His chosen ones.
Those same truths, reflecting a biblical balance, have been vigorously defended by a host of Reformed stalwarts, including Thomas Boston, John Brown, Andrew Fuller, W. G. T. Shedd, R. L. Dabney, B. B. Warfield, John Murray, R. B. Kuiper, and many others. In no sense does belief in divine sovereignty rule out the love of God for all humanity.
We are seeing today, in some circles, an almost unprecedented interest in the doctrines of the Reformation and the Puritan eras. I'm very encouraged by that in most respects. A return to those historic truths is, I'm convinced, absolutely necessary if the church is to survive. Yet there is a danger when overzealous souls misuse a doctrine like divine sovereignty to deny God's sincere offer of mercy to all sinners.
We must maintain a carefully balanced perspective as we pursue our study of God's love. God's love cannot be isolated from His wrath and vice versa. Nor are His love and wrath in opposition to each other like some mystical yin-yang principle. Both attributes are constant, perfect, without ebb or flow. His wrath coexists with His love; therefore, the two never contradict. Such are the perfections of God that we can never begin to comprehend these things. Above all, we must not set them against one another, as if there were somehow a discrepancy in God.
Both God's wrath and His love work to the same ultimate end-His glory. God is glorified in the condemnation of the wicked; He is glorified in every expression of love for all people without exception; and He is glorified in the particular love He manifests in saving His people.
Expressions of wrath and expressions of love-all are necessary to display God's full glory. We must never ignore any aspect of His character, nor magnify one to the exclusion of another. When we commit those errors, we throw off the biblical balance, distort the true nature of God, and diminish His real glory.
Does God so love the world? Emphatically-yes! Proclaim that truth far and wide, and do so against the backdrop of God's perfect wrath that awaits everyone who does not repent and turn to Christ.
Does the love of God differ in the breadth and depth and manner of its expression? Yes it does. Praise Him for the many manifestations of His love, especially toward the non-elect, and rejoice in the particular manifestation of His saving love for you who believe. God has chosen to display in you the glory of His redeeming grace.
[1]Arthur W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1930), 29-30.
[2]Ibid., 314.
[3]John Calvin, Commentary on a Harmony of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, William Pringle, trans. (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979 reprint), 123.
Adapted from The God Who Loves © 2001 by John MacArthur. All rights reserved.
• Grace to You (Thursday, July 21, 2005)
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***Hmmm, Jesus says that He laid down His life for His friends.
* Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. - John 15:13 (KJV)***
That's true - greater love hath no MAN.
But Jesus is not *just* a man and his love exceeded that of mere men in that he layed down his life for his enemies.
Thoughts?
And there is the flaw in your reasoning. Please cite the scripture(s) indicating that God is "fair" (a human concept), where God ever said He gives everyone an equal chance (which is exactly what you're advocating), and where mankind, despite the Fall and the depths to which sin has affected snd infected every man, possesses the ability by his own will, with no outside influence, to volitionally choose Christ.
How is the Justice of God insulted, when it is certain from scripture that man is a sinner by birth and by nature, and is justly condemned for sin, not only being a sinner, but for actually sinning? Did God not say, "the soul that sins shall die"? Is not the wrath of God revealed from Heaven against all unrighteousness? How can it be, then, that if God actually carries out His Righteous Judgment for sin, that you accuse Him of being "unfair" because he didn't give everyone and "equal chance", as you perceive it?
Does God OWE salvation to every man? Does He even owe every man an equal chance? That seems to be the basis of your objections to Calvinism.
The greatest creation God could ever make is found in mankind. Man has consciousness, is aware of his creator, understands judgment, righteousness, mercy, grace, and love. He has the ability to worship his creator.
The soul is eternal - sin is SERIOUS - the punishment must equal the crime.
If heaven is the greatest thing that could happen to a soul, then rejection of heaven (God) must warrant the greatest punishment - hell.
If God didn't punish sin, He would have little gods running around for eternity, procreating and raising more little gods whose only goal is self-love and procreation of more little gods - all the while blaspheming by their words, deeds and existence, the God that created them.
How could little, procreating gods exist, if there is only one God? If God is the creator of everything, then wouldn't they be His creations? Would He clone Himself?
Salvation in Armenian thought is MAN making the correct choice. It is man and not God that decides his eternity..it is all about MAN.
Making a choice whether it is the color of a car or if salvation is worth it is a work of the intellect.
It is not Grace (unearned favor ) as you have earned it my your intellectual process. It is not mercy ( NOT getting what you deserve) as you now deserve it by your wise choice.
It is wages due and it eliminates Salvation as an act of God.
Jesus does not save the man . The man saves himself with his wise choice
Man does not have the natural ability to choose Christ, he has born spiritually dead. Dead man can not make life saving choices.
The understanding of the gospel and the understanding of what sinful creatures we are is only possible with an act of God.
It is the Holy Spirit that convicts us our sin and our need for a savior and that leads us into all truth that makes us desire Christ (He quickens us ) . Man can not do that in himself . Listen to the word of God
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
We have no ability or desire in our selves until the Grace of God empowers us. That is not an act of OUR will, but because of the will of God
So either you have a salvation of God or a salvation of man.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation is not a choice of man, it is a gift of God
If we are made in the image of God, it is a very God trait.
that in order to believe as you do, one must think that.
Thank you. Most responses are "I don't believe that." Obviously atheists don't believe that, but as long as you understand logically why it must be, it's a start.
As you say, God knew man would reject Him, so why punish someone, for doing something that you, ultimately are responsible for?
Not all of mankind reject him. He could have made only those that would receive Him, but to receive Him requires an informed opportunity to reject Him. Also, He has a prophetic plan to wrap things up, by judging all those that decide to reject Him and blessing all those that receive Him.
It is very important to understand that man has freewill. Freewill must be entirely free. Man must have the ability to receive or reject God.
Most atheists ask, "If we have freewill why do we get punished? It must not really be freewill!"
What they are really asking, "If I really have freewill why do I burn my fingers when I touch the hot stove?"
Freewill pertains to your ability to choose between touching the stove or not touching the stove. It has nothing to do with consequences of touching the hot stove.
Consider the following statements:
I choose to drink and drive, why must I get in a car accident?
I choose to jump off a building, why must I shatter my body?
I want to drink acid, why must my stomach bleed?
Etc, etc, etc.
There are consequences to our choices, it does not mean we don't have freewill.
They are back seat drivers
They are armchair quarterbacks
They think the universe revolves around them.
They are little gods in that they were made in the image of the one true God - and all He asks of them is to submit themselves to His rule and His standard of rightesousness.
You are the one that brought up Ephesians, so discuss the word with me. What did Paul tell them? (that they were predestined before the foundation of the world.)
Now we leave that behind and change the subject?
Your system devalues the sacrifice of Christ by limiting its potential to a select few while consigning the majority of humanity to no chance of ever experiencing that salvation. It insults the justice of God by condemning the majority of humanity for a decision they had no ability to make. You hold them responsible as if they had intentionally rejected the salvation offered, when in reality they could not make that decision, they did not have the categories to decide.
I do not do anything. This is about God and His word
Your theological position is that men have an intrinsic goodness and that they are all worthy to be saved, that God owes all men a chance or he is not "fair as men count fair "
Well fairness is that God burn up the world and send ALL humanity into hell, because not one of His creatures DESERVES to be saved. THAT IS WHY WE CALL IT MERCY
And what does God say about that position?
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Your system constricts the love of God by a narrow application to a select few of His creation while believing the vast majority were created intentionally without any hope, with His indifference, just to populate His hell in eternal punishment. It slanders the wrath of God by making it an abstraction since there is no basis for it. He created the lost to be lost.
If you take time to think through your words here you will see that this position is also at odds with what you believe.
If election is based only on God foreknowledge , then WHY did he create those that He KNEW with certainty would never accept him?
You slander the wrath of God with the thought that man can in ANY WAY satisfy that wrath , That is is something only HE can do. You steal from God the right of the creator to create as He will and FOR HIS PURPOSE.
Read the word of God
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
If they are fulfilling His plan and obedient to His will, why is He angry with them and why condemn them for what He purposed and they did?
For His Glory , please really take time to read the word of God without all your preconceived ideas. Just let the spirit of God teach you.
After months of fighting Calvinism one day I was reading the word of God and I wondered how I had never seen it, I remember all the time I said to my self " oh it REALLY does not mean that"
There is nothing in ANY MAN that deserves the mercy of God .We all deserve hell ... yet just as he saved Noah as a trophy of His grace He has set aside a remnant of every generation to be saved from the wrath to come
Thank God that He has saved you instead of arguing that you saved yourself because of how smart you are to make the 'correct" choice
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
I would submit that the person consigned to hell would rather be there than in heaven as difficult as that may seem.
Indeed ...Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
...
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
That was a late night Opps .. that was a commentary on Spurgeons works..
Sorry (says she walking away red-face)
If there is a heaven and there is no hell, then ultimately God is not just.
and I believe that God is neither just or unjust, He is God,
At least you are consistent.
You and the other GRPLs have been corrected on this nine thousand times. The fact that you persist in building this particular strawman demonstrates that you are either not bothering to read our posts explaining our position to you, or that you are being deliberately deceptive in your approach. Either way, I don't see a reason to waste my time explaining a balanced soteriology to you for time #9001.
How can you? You are not a christian.
What is unfair about God's Justice toward those who break His Laws, insult His Holiness, and declare their autonomy before Him?
Your back-handed attempt to portray me as somehow smug and self-satisfied because I got a "get out of jail free card" is not only insulting, it is offensive and completely false. Your false concern for those whom you say didn't get a "fair chance" is also unbiblical, false, and a cloak for your rebellious declaration of autonomy before God, the cry of "I have a free will". You do not understand the depths of depravity sin has caused in man, and you don't want to understand or acknowledge the depravity in your own heart, because deep down, you don't really believe you're as bad as the Bible says we all are.
HarleyD:"I would submit that the person consigned to hell would rather be there than in heaven as difficult as that may seem."
Let us not forget that even those in hell will acknowledge the kingship of Christ and the Glory of God.
Romans 14:11-12
11 For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
Phil 2:9-11
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I believe all those in hell will know the depth of their sin and will cry out for the mercy of God. I don't see how they will desire to be eternally in pain and torment...
Welcome to Free Republic, my friend.
First of all, we really don't know if we are made in God's image. If so, then perhaps God looks like us....but that doesn't mean we have Godlike traits, or He has human traits. If there is only one God, why would He need any sort of distinguishing quality or characteristic? I would think, His being God would be sufficient.
Not everyone believes as you do, so it's not that it must be, it's the way it is for you. I believe God operates outside of what we think of as logical. That's probably why there has been so much confusion and discord throughout the ages...we can only use our logic, to try and understand that which I believe, is not logical. That's why these discussions will go on forever....there's no way of convincing all people of any of this.
He could, and does do, any and all things. I do not believe in the idea of receiving or rejecting God, I don't even understand exactly what it means. God is, regardless of us. We think and do, as He has designed each one of us to.
I do not believe we have free-will, but I understand why people need to believe that we do. One reason being, that otherwise, we couldn't receive or reject God...which is necessary for many beliefs. Another is to establish laws and societies. It's one of those concepts that is inherent in humans. I just don't believe true free-will really exists, I believe we are all operating as God has planned, and can do nothing else. It all depends on when and where we are born, as to whether we are perceived as being good, bad or in-between. Some things, of course, have remained pretty much the same for as long as we can remember.
That is not what they are really asking...I believe that people really ask, and want to know, why we get punished for doing what we do. As I said earlier, I believe that it depends on where and when you live. This is why I do not believe in sin. There are rules that societies have, if they are broken, and you are caught, you pay the consequences. I really do not believe that a human can offend God.
Sure, we believe we make choices, such as you have shown, but until someone can go back in time, then we really do not know if we could have chosen differently. I don't think so.
That just doesn't make any sense to me, sorry.
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