Posted on 06/20/2005 4:38:37 AM PDT by HarleyD
”Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God" (Rom. 11:22). “
In the early part of this century liberalism took mainline Protestant churches by storm. It might be argued that the first half of the present century ushered in the most serious spiritual decline since the Protestant Reformation. Evangelicalism, which had dominated Protestant America since the days of the founding fathers, was virtually driven out of denominational schools and churches. Evangelicalism managed to survive and even thrive outside the denominations. But it never regained its influence in the mainline groups. Instead it has flourished chiefly in relatively small denominations and non-denominational churches. In a few decades, liberalism virtually destroyed the largest Protestant denominations in America and Europe.
One of the most popular spokesmen for liberal Christianity was Harry Emerson Fosdick, pastor of the Riverside Church in New York City. Fosdick, while remaining strongly committed to liberal theology, nevertheless acknowledged that the new theology was undermining the concept of a holy God. Contrasting his age with that of Jonathan Edwards, Fosdick wrote,
Fosdick was never so right. He correctly saw that liberalism had led to a warped and imbalanced concept of God. He could even see far enough ahead to realize that liberalism was taking society into a dangerous wasteland of amorality, where "man's sin, his greed, his selfishness, his rapacity roll up across the years an accumulating mass of consequence until at last in a mad collapse the whole earth crashes into ruin." 2
Despite all that, Fosdick ultimately would not acknowledge the literal reality of God's wrath toward impenitent sinners. To him, "the wrath of God" was nothing more than a metaphor for the natural consequences of wrongdoing. Writing in the wake of World War I, Fosdick suggested that "the moral order of the world has been dipping us in hell."3 His theology would not tolerate a personal God whose righteous anger burns against sin. Moreover, to Fosdick, the threat of actual hell fire was only a relic of a barbaric age. "Obviously, we do not believe in that kind of God any more."
Fosdick wrote those words almost eighty years ago. Sadly, what was true of liberalism then is all too true of evangelicalism today. We have lost the reality of God's wrath. We have disregarded His hatred for sin. The God most evangelicals now describe is all loving and not at all angry. We have forgotten that "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb. 10:31). We do not believe in that kind of God any more.
Ironically, this overemphasis on divine beneficence actually works against a sound understanding of God's love. It has given multitudes the disastrous impression that God is kindly but feeble, or aloof, or simply unconcerned about human wickedness. Is it any wonder that people with a such a concept of God defy His holiness, take His love for granted, and presume on His grace and mercy? Certainly no one would fear a deity like that.
Yet Scripture tells us repeatedly that fear of God is the very foundation of true wisdom (Job 28:28; Ps. 111:10; Prov. 1:7; 9:10; 15:33; Mic. 6:9). People often try to explain the sense of those verses away by saying that the "fear" called for is a devout sense of awe and reverence. Certainly the fear of God includes awe and reverence, but it does not exclude literal holy terror. "It is the Lord of hosts whom you should regard as holy. And He shall be your fear, and He shall be your dread" (Isa. 8:13).
We must recapture some of the holy terror that comes with a right understanding of God's righteous anger. We need to remember that God's wrath does burn against impenitent sinners (Ps. 38:1-3). That reality is the very thing that makes His love so wonderful. We must therefore proclaim these truths with the same sense of conviction and fervency we employ when we declare the love of God. It is only against the backdrop of divine wrath that the full significance of God's love can be truly understood. That is precisely the message of the cross of Jesus Christ. After all, it was on the cross that God's love and His wrath converged in all their majestic fullness.
Only those who see themselves as sinners in the hands of an angry God can fully appreciate the magnitude and wonder of His love. In this regard our generation is surely at a greater disadvantage than any previous age. We have been force-fed the doctrines of self-esteem for so long that most people don't really view themselves as sinners worthy of divine wrath. On top of that, religious liberalism, humanism, evangelical compromise, and ignorance of the Scriptures have all worked against a right understanding of who God is. Ironically, in an age that conceives of God as wholly loving, altogether devoid of wrath, most people are tragically ill-equipped to understand what God's love is all about!
The simple fact is that we cannot appreciate God's love until we have learned to fear Him. We cannot know His love apart from some knowledge of His wrath. We cannot study the kindness of God without also encountering His severity. And if the church of our generations does not regain a healthy balance soon, the rich biblical truth of divine love is likely to be obscured behind what is essentially a liberal, humanistic concept.
Notes
1. Harry Emerson Fosdick,Christianity and Progress (New York: Revell, 1922), 173-74 (emphasis added).
2. Ibid., 174.
3. Ibid (emphasis added).
"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:4-10
We can no more save ourselves than we can flap our arms and fly. Like Lazarus, we are spiritually dead and unable to "choose to believe" unless and until God regenerates our dead hearts.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves"
Men cannot birth themselves the first time; likewise, they cannot rebirth themselves into salvation. Only God saves, according to His plan for His creation from before the foundation of the world.
Or else He's not God; He's simply the strongest player on the team, with the big game still undecided, the scoreboard fluctuating wildly, and the clock inevitably winding down until Prom night.
You have not strayed very much from the theme of the article. From the article talking about Fosdick: "His theology would not tolerate a personal God whose righteous anger burns against sin." This applies to your theology as well.
I'm Presbyterian. May I inquire as to your denomination/religion/nomenclature?
We have been down this road before, and I do not wish to rehash old arguments. I agree that God will save us according to His plan.
Why would you say that? Is it possible to be truly rational or irrational about what is unknown?
This was a interesting, civil thread, without the usual personal attacks, but I can see that is changing. If you have run out of decent conversation, like some of the others that recently showed-up, then I will call it a day for now. It is a shame, that one cannot continue these sort of conversations, without it generating into name-calling. I have been perfectly civil with all of you, and not said anything the least bit deragatory about your beliefs, but it appears that this is not possible for many.
Speaking from a catholic point of view.... the writings of Saint Faustina, a nun and mystic who lived in the early 1900's, rec'd visions and claimed that God showed her hell. One thing she said that sent chills down my spine. She said that a large number of souls sent to hell, never believed in hell while they lived.
OK
Where do you get that information and who are you agreeing with?
Why not? It was going along quite nicely for a number of hours, without anyone complaining.
I am just a human being that believes in one, all-powerful and all-knowing God.
I never called you any names, and I never intended for you to feel that way. Please forgive me if you feel I have done anything like that.
The fact of the matter is that God has made Himself known to mankind, through His Word. Your belief is that there is no absolute Truth. I pray that you will reconsider and discover that God truly wants you to be one of His children. And the only way to do that is to come to Him through His Son, Jesus Christ.
God Bless.
I am agreeing with you, to a point.
***It is not monsterous to me.***
You don't see it as monsterous that God would positively will those things we spoke of?
***By societies mores, and whatever it is inside of me that is my conscience.***
What if your conscience disagres with society's mores?
***As you said, when God tells me to think differently, then I'm sure I will.***
You see stuartcr, that's just the very thing! He has told you to think differently! He does every day in the Bible. Let the Bible inform you about God. Let the Bible be your guide as to what is the will of God and waht God is like. Will you do that?
See, Stuart, this is the problem with your position. You say you "believe in God," but you don't "base your belief on the bible."
All Christians and Jews are thankfully aware that God created the heavens and earth and everything contained therein as a means to display His glory. And all Christians and Jews know this because the inspired word of God clearly tells them this.
On the religion forum, most of us are used to a more comprehensive discussion of faith than the offerings of a Platonist/naturalist/mystic, which is what you are, by definition. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, in a civil discussion.)
So if you feel God's presence without the guidance of the Holy Bible, most Christians will be skeptical, because most Christians believe that faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
If you are indeed being led by the Holy Ghost, I would hope you open the Bible and follow His instructions.
I apologise, I took the term irrational, too personally. I was bothered by the more recent entries to this thread, which don't have anything positive to say.
I believe that it is inherent in us humans to strive, with all our might, for absolute truths. But throughout the history of mankind, there has just not been evidence of the existence of an absolute truths. Everything is situational. It would seem that an absolute truth, by definition, would be so absolute, that none could deny it. I have yet to see this. As an example, I will use the taking of a human life. One would think that this has to be an absolute truth...that it is horribly wrong. Yet, there are so many examples of the taking of human lives that are considered moral....war, self-defence, etc., and so many that are considered immoral, murder, abortion, etc. They both have the same result, a human life is removed. This, to me, is what I consider morally relative.
As I said, if I wake up tomorrow morning, believing differently, then so be it.
Please present the truth, and explain how you know it is the truth.
It's also close to my going home time, so I've only got another 1/2 hour.
Is the earth quaking again? 8~)
I used to completely agree with you.
But the notion that God was in control kept gnawing at me. God controls/I control/God controls/I control...
Gradually, inevitably, inexorably, the former expanded and the latter diminished. When the equation finally became God = 100% control and me = 0% control, I found myself rejoicing. Every hair numbered; every star named; every atom moved by His hand alone, according to His determinate will, ordained from before the foundation of the world.
What's the downside of that? I can see none, if indeed the Holy Ghost sanctifies the sheep. And I believe He does.
The debt is paid. Christ is risen. Thank you, God.
No, as I believe God to be above that which we may consider monstrous.
Then I pay the price.
Apparently He hasn't, or I would believe differently.
And that belief is based on what? Where does it come from?
That is only a problem to you.
I am thankfully aware that God created the heavens and earth and all included, also, I just don't know why He did it.
We should all get exposed to different thinking, that is one of the reasons I post here.
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