Posted on 06/20/2005 4:38:37 AM PDT by HarleyD
"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:4-10
We can no more save ourselves than we can flap our arms and fly. Like Lazarus, we are spiritually dead and unable to "choose to believe" unless and until God regenerates our dead hearts.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves"
Men cannot birth themselves the first time; likewise, they cannot rebirth themselves into salvation. Only God saves, according to His plan for His creation from before the foundation of the world.
Or else He's not God; He's simply the strongest player on the team, with the big game still undecided, the scoreboard fluctuating wildly, and the clock inevitably winding down until Prom night.
You have not strayed very much from the theme of the article. From the article talking about Fosdick: "His theology would not tolerate a personal God whose righteous anger burns against sin." This applies to your theology as well.
I'm Presbyterian. May I inquire as to your denomination/religion/nomenclature?
We have been down this road before, and I do not wish to rehash old arguments. I agree that God will save us according to His plan.
Why would you say that? Is it possible to be truly rational or irrational about what is unknown?
This was a interesting, civil thread, without the usual personal attacks, but I can see that is changing. If you have run out of decent conversation, like some of the others that recently showed-up, then I will call it a day for now. It is a shame, that one cannot continue these sort of conversations, without it generating into name-calling. I have been perfectly civil with all of you, and not said anything the least bit deragatory about your beliefs, but it appears that this is not possible for many.
Speaking from a catholic point of view.... the writings of Saint Faustina, a nun and mystic who lived in the early 1900's, rec'd visions and claimed that God showed her hell. One thing she said that sent chills down my spine. She said that a large number of souls sent to hell, never believed in hell while they lived.
OK
Where do you get that information and who are you agreeing with?
Why not? It was going along quite nicely for a number of hours, without anyone complaining.
I am just a human being that believes in one, all-powerful and all-knowing God.
I never called you any names, and I never intended for you to feel that way. Please forgive me if you feel I have done anything like that.
The fact of the matter is that God has made Himself known to mankind, through His Word. Your belief is that there is no absolute Truth. I pray that you will reconsider and discover that God truly wants you to be one of His children. And the only way to do that is to come to Him through His Son, Jesus Christ.
God Bless.
I am agreeing with you, to a point.
***It is not monsterous to me.***
You don't see it as monsterous that God would positively will those things we spoke of?
***By societies mores, and whatever it is inside of me that is my conscience.***
What if your conscience disagres with society's mores?
***As you said, when God tells me to think differently, then I'm sure I will.***
You see stuartcr, that's just the very thing! He has told you to think differently! He does every day in the Bible. Let the Bible inform you about God. Let the Bible be your guide as to what is the will of God and waht God is like. Will you do that?
See, Stuart, this is the problem with your position. You say you "believe in God," but you don't "base your belief on the bible."
All Christians and Jews are thankfully aware that God created the heavens and earth and everything contained therein as a means to display His glory. And all Christians and Jews know this because the inspired word of God clearly tells them this.
On the religion forum, most of us are used to a more comprehensive discussion of faith than the offerings of a Platonist/naturalist/mystic, which is what you are, by definition. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, in a civil discussion.)
So if you feel God's presence without the guidance of the Holy Bible, most Christians will be skeptical, because most Christians believe that faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
If you are indeed being led by the Holy Ghost, I would hope you open the Bible and follow His instructions.
I apologise, I took the term irrational, too personally. I was bothered by the more recent entries to this thread, which don't have anything positive to say.
I believe that it is inherent in us humans to strive, with all our might, for absolute truths. But throughout the history of mankind, there has just not been evidence of the existence of an absolute truths. Everything is situational. It would seem that an absolute truth, by definition, would be so absolute, that none could deny it. I have yet to see this. As an example, I will use the taking of a human life. One would think that this has to be an absolute truth...that it is horribly wrong. Yet, there are so many examples of the taking of human lives that are considered moral....war, self-defence, etc., and so many that are considered immoral, murder, abortion, etc. They both have the same result, a human life is removed. This, to me, is what I consider morally relative.
As I said, if I wake up tomorrow morning, believing differently, then so be it.
Please present the truth, and explain how you know it is the truth.
It's also close to my going home time, so I've only got another 1/2 hour.
Is the earth quaking again? 8~)
I used to completely agree with you.
But the notion that God was in control kept gnawing at me. God controls/I control/God controls/I control...
Gradually, inevitably, inexorably, the former expanded and the latter diminished. When the equation finally became God = 100% control and me = 0% control, I found myself rejoicing. Every hair numbered; every star named; every atom moved by His hand alone, according to His determinate will, ordained from before the foundation of the world.
What's the downside of that? I can see none, if indeed the Holy Ghost sanctifies the sheep. And I believe He does.
The debt is paid. Christ is risen. Thank you, God.
No, as I believe God to be above that which we may consider monstrous.
Then I pay the price.
Apparently He hasn't, or I would believe differently.
And that belief is based on what? Where does it come from?
That is only a problem to you.
I am thankfully aware that God created the heavens and earth and all included, also, I just don't know why He did it.
We should all get exposed to different thinking, that is one of the reasons I post here.
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