Posted on 05/15/2005 11:00:40 PM PDT by mandatum
The NCR's John Allen has a chat in a Roman café with San Francisco Archbishop William Levada, who is distressed by "aggressive Pentecostal and evangelical movements making strong inroads into traditionally Catholic populations" in the U.S. Why do these people bother to go after Catholics?
"These are people acting out of their own sense of the missionary apostolate. They are not people touched by the vision of ecumenism. They are convinced that Catholics are going to Hell and need to be saved, so they reach out to them."
Can you beat that? These folks really believe that there really is a Hell. They don't want their neighbors to go there -- they're not touched by the vision of ecumenism -- so they put themselves to considerable trouble to reach out to them to save them from damnation.
Now take look at any letter, homily, speech, interview or book produced by Levada or by the USCCB in the past 30 years, and try to come up with a single example of pastoral concern that someone, anyone, may end up in Hell as a consequence of any action whatever. You won't find it.
Catholic Parishes Flourish in Southern U.S.
Number of Catholics Rises by 15 Million (Diocesan Priests Increase; Religious Decrease)
Spanish Catholicism still very robust (3 shrines and The Sagrada Familia)
Catholics outsource praying to India
Catholic Priests in India 'Outsourced' to Meet Clergy Shortage in West
Christian Coalition head (in Ala.) becomes Catholic
Church growth continues for Catholic and Pentecostals; six mainline denominations decline
Young people turn against their parents' 'church lite'
Pope calls US Church to repentance and renewal
A father for the 11th time - Widower becomes Catholic priest
Number of Adults Who Don't Attend Church Service Doubles
Huge Christian growth shocks China's leaders
Church Attendance Increased : Protestants have now clearly overtaken Catholics in church attendance
Catholics Trail Protestants in Church Attendance [Gallup]
Church Attendance Linked to Longer Life
Dozens of Episcopalians Follow Leader into Catholic Church
Thousands prepare to join U.S. Catholic Church this Easter
Where Have All the People in the Pews Gone?
More Than 150,000 People to Join Catholic Church Holy Saturday
Spirituality on the rise on college campuses
Analysis: Rome up, Protestantism down?
Benedict's Logic: A Church Contracting & Expanding Simultaneously
CHRISTIANITY EXPLODING WORLDWIDE; 3RD WORLD SENDING MISSIONARIES [V ENCOURAGING DOC]
Christianity taking over the planet?
Local pews straining to hold increasing Catholic population
Catholic Church is losing sway in Europe (Opinion from Ireland)
Actually, I don't think BXVI is a wolf in sheep's clothing. And I think Levada might not be that bad for the position, after all - go to the links on the other thread and read a more extensive selection of his writings. I just think he was not an effective bishop and didn't have what it took to stand up to the VatII nutcases out in SF. He walked into a very conflictive situation and they ran right over him; believe it or not, however, many of the SF clergy write about how they "hate" him for being so conservative!
I don't think Levada's new responsibilities are going to put him in such a position again, because it sounds as if the Pope himself is planning on doing the enforcement (which is the way it used to be prior to VatII). I think Levada will be more of a coordinator and spokesman.
Thanks for the new tag line.
Levada helped write the Catechism of the Catholic Church which clearly says that everyone who dies in mortal sin and final impenitence is damned.
We also pray in the Canon of the Mass on a generally weekly basis "save us from final damnation".
So whatever are you talking about?
There have never been more converts to the Church every year than there are now. And that includes the US, where there are around 175,000 converts every year now.
Again, what fantasyland do you live in?
I'm not sure Sal, I thought that was some Dream thet he had! I'll try to find some reference on it. Thanks
Levada is upset that Pentecostalists are teaching Catholics that they are going to hell if they don't convert.
From this you leap to despair about Benedict XVI?
Have you been living under a rock for 35 years? Its in the words of the Mass! ("Save us from final damnation"). To say nothing of readings from the Bible on this topic, and sermons mentioning it (at least where I have been, I hear periodic sermons mentioning it - maybe you are hanging out with too many Queerbo Priests).
This is why they are happy to see the back of him. I don't think he did much discipling in his diocese.
As for Walsh, he was the guy who was assigned to clean up the horrible mess in Santa Rosa, CA. In short, the sick Bishop there (Zeiman, IIRC) brought this boy toy back fron Central America and "ordained" him with no education, etc. He had only one purpose in the diocese. It's a very sick story which you can look up. Walsh came in to straigthen things up there. It is speculated that the diocese of SF might be his "reward". Not much of a prize if you ask me.
BTTT
Thanks for the information! I have family in SF and go there fairly often, and I have not been impressed by Levada as bishop. We were very hopeful when he was announced, because he had a track record of orthodoxy, but he obviously found it easier to be away from the diocese than dealing with the real problems there.
Did Walsh do a good job on cleaning up Santa Rosa? I lived there for a few years but did not even send my kids to Catholic school because of the problems there. Actually, there weren't any schools except for a girls' high school -but unfortunately at that time, the bishop before Ziemann had some problem with a priest who was "involved" with some of the girls. Ziemann made things even worse, and was personally corrupt (both sexually and financially) himself.
The only thing that has seriously disturbed me about Levada is that he has been somewhat sympathetic to Ziemann, who was a classmate of his; but then, this is probably the same "good old boys" type of thing that makes Bush chummy with Clinton. People in a position of authority tend to support each other, no matter how horribly one of them has behaved.
Let us know more about Walsh! I hope he's wearing flame-proof vestments, because if he really wants to reform SF, he's going to need them.
It is the statement, "They are not people touched by the vision of ecumenism" and all that it implies that I find distressing. This vision, I suspect, is the vision of Cardinal Kasper. It is a vision of a One World Church, it is a vision of the Catholic Church as one amongst equals. It is at heart heretical and despite Ratizinger's involvment with Dominus Iesus, it concerns me that he would appoint a man of such anti-Catholic views to head the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith!
An excerpt regarding moral problems with the clergy regarding drink, gambling, lustful desires and other sins. No one is impervious as it is the same sins that affect all.
"Help for clerics who lust after different life path by
Hazel Trice Edney
NATIONAL NEWSPAPER PUBLISHERS ASSOCIATION
Similar stories are repeated in city after city, leaving behind devastated wives and families, angry and divided congregations, preachers fighting their own leadership boards and ending tortured in personal humiliation and self-loathing.
Hundreds of ministerial leaders stepped forward at the Jakes conference, confessing to weaknesses, failures and sins that they would normally preach about to their congregations. Following the conference, Jakes has been directing pastors to the American Association of Christian Counselors in Forest, Va., which has a network of 7,000 counselors across the country."
http://www.prometheus6.org/week/node/2004/02/08
If you like heterodoxy, scandal, pedophilia, declining vocations, poor catechesis, and declining mass attendance then you're going to love the comedy duo of Kasper and Levada. Coming this fall to a devastated vineyard near you.
'Levada is upset that Pentecostalists are teaching Catholics that they are going to hell if they don't convert.'
The answer is conversion but not Evangelicalism/Pentacostalism, but to Catholicism. So many in the pews are only warming them and have no concept as to what the faith teaches, before or after V2. The problem is not with the mass being in the vernacular, the problem is with the liberal, watered down Catechesis and preaching that has been and is being taught. V2 may well have opened that door, but a fair number have walked through it and the Church is paying the price now. I know, I was a victim of the watered down Catechesis taught in the 1960's and 1970's. I was a public schooler, and I've seen noithing to convince me it was any better for my Catholic School educated peers. Only recently has the beauty of all She teaches and her positions on all matters down through the ages been brought to the forefront of my awareness.
We have to get back to authentic Catholic teaching. We can't keep watering down the faith and expect better, more faithful Catholics to result from it.
MEXICO CITY, Oct 21, 2004 (IPS) - For the Catholic church hierarchy in the Vatican, Latin America has changed from the "Continent of Hope" to the continent of concern, as followers are leaving the church in such large numbers that it could lead to the collapse of Catholicism within a decade and a half.
Although Latin America is still home to almost half of the 1.07 billion Catholics in the world today, numerous studies indicate that their numbers are declining throughout the region.
The loss of Catholic faithful "is a painful reality that calls out dramatically to us as pastors of Latin American churches," said Cipriano Calderón, a member of the Vatican Congregation for Bishops and former president of the Pontifical Commission for Latin America.
In Brazil, where there are more Catholics than in any other country in the world -- roughly 100 million, out of a total population of close to 180 million -- close to half a million followers are leaving the Catholic church every year.
Something similar is happening in Mexico, the country with the second largest number of Catholics. Roughly 88 percent of its 102 million inhabitants today identify themselves as Catholics, revealing a decline of almost 10 percent compared to the mid-20th century.
In Colombia, only two out of every three people profess themselves Catholics today, when almost the entire population was Catholic in the 1950s.
The phenomenon is particularly marked in Guatemala, where almost one-third of the country's 12 million inhabitants have left the Catholic church, and most of those leaving have converted to evangelical Protestantism.
Meanwhile, 71.3 percent of Costa Rica's 4.2 million people declare themselves to be Catholic today, when just one year ago, a full 77 percent professed this faith, according to a survey conducted by the department of mathematics at the public University of Costa Rica.
However, another poll carried out by Unimer Research International, a private firm, revealed that 52 percent of the Costa Ricans consulted "no longer believe" in the Catholic church, while only 44 percent said they do believe.
According to the Costa Rican Episcopal Vicariate, the Catholic church is currently losing an average of 658 followers a day in that Central American nation.
"God is being pushed to the backburner," lamented the president of the Episcopal Conference of Costa Rica, José Francisco Ulloa.
But for Elio Masferrer, chairman of the Latin American Religious Studies Association, it is not a matter of a loss of faith, but rather the fact that the Catholic church is losing its traditional hold on what he calls "the religious market".
"If the (Catholic) church doesn't make changes to its centralised structures and authoritarian messages, it will suffer a genuine collapse in Latin America within roughly 15 years," he predicted to IPS.
Israel Batista, the general secretary of the Latin American Council of Churches (CLAI) believes that Roman Catholicism, ruled by the Vatican, is losing ground in the region because "it hasn't succeeded in responding to the demands of the faithful," and has maintained "hierarchical structures that are distanced from the people."
"The Catholic Church will have to change if it wants to stay strong," Batista told IPS. His group, CLAI, is based in Ecuador and represents over 150 Baptist, Congregational, Episcopalian, Evangelical, Lutheran, Moravian, Mennonite, Methodist, Nazarene, Orthodox, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Reformed and Waldensian churches in 21 countries throughout Latin America.
Masferrer and Batista concur that the Vatican has become too distanced from the daily lives of the people, their earthly tribulations, and their need for compassion and love. And this has created a void that the evangelical Protestant churches have rapidly positioned themselves to fill.
Batista noted that over 15 percent of Latin Americans today belong to evangelical churches, which have experienced a "spectacular leap" in growth in the region in recent decades.
"When you go to an evangelical church, you are taken into the community, which is relatively free of hierarchy, whereas in the Catholic churches, the faithful are scattered and receive advice and even orders from faraway places like the Vatican, which often do not relate whatsoever to the reality of the people," he said.
During the reign of Pope John Paul II, which began in 1978, the number of Catholics in the world, measured by the number of baptisms, grew from 758 million to 1.07 billion people. Nevertheless, this rise in numbers does not imply an actual expansion of Catholicism, because it doesn't take into account the growth of the world's population as a whole.
In fact, Catholics accounted for 17.9 percent of the world's population in 1978, but they now represent 17.2 percent. In addition, many of those who were baptised as Catholics, and are thus counted as parishioners by the Vatican, have in fact left the church.
Statistics from the Pontifical Yearbook reveal that over the last 26 years, the number of priests has fallen by 3.7 percent, while the number of nuns has plunged by 20.9 percent.
"No matter which way you look at it, the statistics show that the Catholic church is in decline around the world, and Latin America has played a major part in this," said Masferrer.
He offered other statistics to contrast the differences between the Catholic and evangelical Protestant churches in the region. In Mexico, for example, there is one priest for every 7,200 worshippers, whereas in the evangelical churches, the ratio is one pastor for every 230 followers.
What's more, the average age of evangelical pastors in Mexico is 32, as compared to 65 for Catholic priests.
"The (Catholic) church will fall into crisis unless significant changes are made to the Vatican structures, which have become much more centralised and authoritarian under Pope John Paul II," he stated.
For Batista, one of the most obvious errors made by the Catholic church in Latin America has been the way it has lost touch with the region's poor, "who have been welcomed in by the evangelical churches."
During the 1960s and 1970s, a significant number of Catholic bishops and priests in Latin America became involved in the liberation theology movement, based on their belief that the church could not simply minister to people's souls while ignoring their needs here on earth.
They worked in close contact with the poorest and most marginalised sectors of society, as Jesus was said to have done, spreading the gospel while participating in the struggle for economic and political justice.
In fact, the arrival of evangelical Protestant churches was welcomed and even promoted in some Latin American countries as a way of drawing people away from what many viewed as the dangerously "left-wing" liberation theology.
But this danger soon passed, as the Vatican hierarchy itself, under Pope John Paul II, became openly critical of the political involvement of the priests and bishops in this movement, many of whom were excommunicated.
A quarter of a century later, there are now extremely few progressive bishops left in Mexico and Brazil, which John Paul II has visited four and five times, respectively.
Fully conscious of the loss of followers, but strictly adhering to the Vatican line, the former president of the Pontifical Commission for Latin America has been calling on the priests and bishops of the region to work harder to ensure that the problem does not become even more severe.
"A few years from now, will we still be able to say that half of the Catholics in the world live in Latin America? Do we not see how the Catholic church is being bled dry by the numbers of followers who are continually leaving our church to join sects, or to turn their backs on Christianity altogether?" he asked at a recent gathering of Latin American bishops.
"This is an extremely grave phenomenon, which requires an urgent and serious response," he added.
Evangelical Protestantism is now the second leading religion in Brazil, according to the 2000 census. The followers of the different denominations have grown from nine percent of the population in 1991 to 15.1 percent, while the proportion of Catholics has dropped from 83.7 percent to 73.7 percent.
The Pope himself has called on Catholic church leaders in Latin America to "pay special attention to the problem of the sects," as the Catholic church refers to the evangelical Protestant churches.
"Resolute pastoral action is essential for dealing with this serious problem, by reviewing the pastoral methods used, strengthening the structures of communion and mission, and making the most of the evangelising possibilities of a purified popular religiosity," he declared.
One of the strategies he proposed was the creation of a Latin American Catholic television network.
But in Batista's opinion, if the Catholic church does not learn to be tolerant towards other religions, and to work in closer contact with the people and address their individual needs, it will continue to lose ground no matter how much "propaganda" it puts out.
"People feel alienated by a church that condemns divorce and is not willing to listen, an authoritarian church that opposes the use of condoms, and isn't willing to adapt to the times and the real needs of people," said Masferrer.
"But expecting changes in all of these aspects seems just short of impossible under the current Vatican leadership," he concluded. (END/2004)
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In the business world, if you don't take care of your customers, call them, show some interest in them, they'll go buy from somebody else.
A priest that has to cover thousands of square miles or more may only get to individual communities once every three months.
The Latin American Church is having the same problem the North American CHurch is having: a dwindling, aging supply of priests.
The evangelicals form small faith communities, train then ordain a local community leader as pastor. He's there with the people, in the community, on a daily basis. This stands opposite the itinerant priest who comes in for a couple of hours every three months to baptize, hear confessions, celebrate Mass, and give the Sacrament of the Sick. He simply doesn't have time to get to know the people or their concerns.
Unlike the American Church, which will more easily tolerate lay leadership of parishes, the Latin Church communities apparently don't thrive under laymen. Perhaps it's poor training, or lack of acceptance of laymen in positions of leadership.
Whatever the cause, the Catholic Church is hemorrhaging in Latin America and innovative solutions will have to be found. The "liberal" bishops who were providing a welcoming atmosphere were pitched over the side by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who feared that the marxism embraced by some of them would infect the Church. Now, the bishops who are left can seem to do nothing but wring their hands and say "We have to do something, we have to pray more," while the evangelicals actually demonstrate Christian love for poor people.
At least the people seem to be saying as much by voting with their feet.
What ELSE would Fellay or his followers say?
I think what is behind a lot of this is that Evangelicals maintain and show a very strong allegiance to Christ's ministry of the poor, and do not require obedience to doctrines concerning contraception, divorce or unfailing obedience to a/the Head of the Church.
The Evangelical Chuch also has the appearance (and I think fact) of less affluence, and a more democratic demeanor. One can imagine an Evangelical pastor golfing or fishing with the groundskeeper, that's hard to imagine of a lot of Priests.
Nearly all the Priests I've ever known in the small town I grew up in (to say nothing of large cities) allied themselves with the more affluent in the Community. They went to dinner regularly at their home(s), not the home of some blue-collar working stiff.
There are a couple of Priests I knew who were not at all in that mold, but they represent such a small percentage as to be insignificant in number, though never in character or style.
Can you point to contemporary examples of the Church teaching Christ's flock heterodoxy? I wasn't aware this was possible.
scandal
Who has the Church scandalized?
pedophilia
This seems to have been a phenomena of the period 1940-1990. How is this related to the present day other than money-grubbing lawyers making an easy score?
declining vocations
Vocations in the West have been in a decline since WWI in many places like France, and certainly since 1945 or 1960. However that decline ended around 1980, and they have since leveled off at the current low level. I think you are thinking of a decline in the number of priests. That is inevitable when a smaller cohort replaces a larger one. But has nothing to do with the relative level of vocations being produced today compared to recent years.
poor catechesis
One of the few things the laity can affect. Are you volunteering to teach at your local parish? If not, why don't you then shut up or put up?
declining mass attendance
Mass attendance (and Church membership) has been declining from historic highs for the past 100 years in most of the west.
then you're going to love the comedy duo of Kasper and Levada. Coming this fall to a devastated vineyard near you.
Can you provide a direct link showing responsibility of these two men for the problems you outline? I.e. have these two been forcing people out in the street so they cannot attend Mass, or plotting new ways to poorly teach children and discourage priestly vocations among young boys?
I'm trying to see the line of personal fault you are drawing here with your accusations.
Millions of Catholics apostacized pre-Vatican II in America, especially in the period 1880 to 1940. You can do the math easily by adding up the numbers of people of Irish/Italian/Polish/Hispanic/French/Lithuanian/Czech/Austrian/etc. descent and comparing that to the Catholic population. That is how you have oddities today like 3rd generation Irish Baptists, Italian Methodists, Ruthenian Orthodox, and Hispanic Evangelicals. Its not like all these people weren't Catholics back when they came here.
Catechesis in America appears to have been in a permanent crisis at least since the early 1800's.
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