The Word and the SymbolCould Traditional Anglicans Come Home?Posted on 05/09/2005 8:21:54 AM PDT by NYer
Father Peter Toon is a strict traditionalist in all things liturgical, which is fitting since he leads the Society for the Preservation of the Book of Common Prayer.
A Friendly Series of ExchangesThe Word and the SymbolCould Traditional Anglicans Come Home?
Ping!
"Could Traditional Anglicans Come Home?"
The Anglicans left because the Catholic Church wouldn't grant a divorce to a King.
Let's welcome them back with open arms! PB-16 rocks! I love that man.
A lot has changed since then. The Anglican Communion now ordains women and married priests may become bishops. Don't imagine that would fly very well with catholics.
I do think the Anglican Communion is under an all-out attack from the left and my guess is that there will be a "schism" of sorts in the VERY near future. I think this is of particular importance to Catholics, because I firmly believe that the left is using the war between Anglicans as something of a "trial run" for Catholicism.
Do Traditionalist Anglicans ordain women priests? I was under the impression they did not.
Traditional Anglicans would have a problem with the Church's teaching on ordination? Doesn't seem very likely:
Priestly ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone. This tradition has also been faithfully maintained by the Oriental Churches.
When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church: "She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for his Church."
...
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.
Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable brothers, and upon all the faithful, I impart my apostolic blessing.
From the Vatican, on May 22, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate.
For some reason, I thought they did, but I am probably wrong.
That's a very interesting idea, wag. I think you're right. I think it's particularly interesting considering the history of Anglicanism.
Henry VIII created what was essentially a church adapted to the interests of the state, although there have always always people in it who regarded the problem as merely jurisdictional and never perceived the profound problem inherent in making a secular power the head of your church. These are the people, oddly enough, who are being forced out of Anglicanism now, because Anglicanism is becoming what it always was: a religious body that blessed the actions of the state because it was subject to them. Anglicans (I admit I'm using the term a little loosely, because I'm including US Episcopalians) are being asked once again to affirm their blessing of secular ideas and practices, although the ideas have changed: from divorce, to gay "marriage," abortion, etc.
This is where we are going to be challenged. I think the Catholic Church is heading towards a clash with the State in many countries throughout the world, once again not over theological issues but over moral issues. Many forces within the Church would like to declare an "American Church" or some such thing that would accept everything going on here, like the "Patriotic Catholic Church" of China. Personally, I think the only refuge for Traditional Anglicans is going to be the Catholic Church - but as you pointed out, the Church is going to be much more the focus of the type of attacks Traditional Anglicans are facing, so by the time you come into it, it may be a lot smaller than it is now...
The left has been actively doing this the past few years by two primary means:
1. The sex scandals with some priests. The leftist media has been all over this and they have made it seem like a far bigger problem than it really is. Also, they have portrayed it as primarily a pedophilia issue, while it is actually a homosexuality issue. The media does this because to denounce some priests as homosexuals would cause conflict with their own agenda.
2. Also, in the past few years we are seeing increasing leftist mention of celibacy. The left is trying to argue that the only way to insure enough priests in the future is to allow them to marry. This is wrong, but it is an easy argument to divide Catholics. Remember, many, if not most, Catholics do not understand the scriptural reasons for celibacy and this makes for an easy way to divide the Church.
Exactly. And not just in America. Keep your eye on Spain, where the Socialists have a gay "marriage" bill set to become law in the very near future when the Spanish Senate votes on it - the bishops have told Catholics they cannot vote for this, but are also trying to secure some sort of conscientious objector status for mayors and civil authorities who do not want to "marry" persons of the same sex. I think this is going to be one of the first crises B16 has to face.
They are working on Europe, and they have largely succeeded, parts of Spain, Portugal, Italy and some Baltic regions being the big exceptions. However, the left realizes that like anything else, churches need money to fund their operation. If the left can destroy Christianity in America, it will severely limit the money being spent by many denominations on missionary work in Africa, Asia and South America.
Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams. They did not. They were always there. The disputation of King Henry VIII was not just over a mere disagreement of divorce, but of sovereignty, an issue that had been an issue between England and Rome for centuries. Christianity and the Church was already in place when St. Augustine arrived and the Catholicism of the Anglicans has been enduring. King Henry VIII was the straw that broke the camel's back, however. The Church in England did NOT just up and decide to leave. The Great Schism is your benchmark, not the perfidy of a King looking for an heir.
Not those Anglicans who left the ECUSA in the 1970s when the ordination of women was 'approved'. The Traditionalists maintain the Apostolic Succession, and in our church, the Original Province of the Anglican Catholic church, Transubstantiation is also upheld. You might say we are too Catholic for Episcopalians, but not "Catholic" enough for the RCCers. Its a tough position to be in, but I much prefer it. I see more danger in the Mariology that has arisen in the RCC than in any progressive attempts by the Left. It troubles me that some circles are saying that Mary is necessary for salvation. As an ACCer, I give reverence to the Virgin Mary for her role as Christ's mother, but find it disturbing that one would need to include her in the path of salvation.
I see more danger in the Mariology that has arisen in the RCC than in any progressive attempts by the Left. It troubles me that some circles are saying that Mary is necessary for salvation. As an ACCer, I give reverence to the Virgin Mary for her role as Christ's mother, but find it disturbing that one would need to include her in the path of salvation.
I understand your apprehension of excessive Mariology in the Catholic Church, but a quick review of the Catechism should reassure you that the official position of the Church on Mary is very close to or the same as your own.
I think I understand your position, Alkhin. And I expect you are the original of the Anglican Catholic Church. I should like others here to continue to recognize that that schism included other provinces, at one of which is still active and to which I belong. If your province was formed out of the Affirmation of Saint Louis, then it is a sister province to mine, the Anglican Province of Christ the King.
In Christ,
Deacon Paul+
"not the perfidy of a King looking for an heir"
Ok. It wasn’t just the divorce. The origin of the Anglican church is not from a significant theological debate, but in the desire of a secular ruler to obtain a divorce, obtain Church lands and property, and to exercise direct ecclesiastical control. (To this day, Her Majesty the Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. She appoints archbishops, bishops and deans of cathedrals on the advice of the Prime Minister. The two archbishops and 24 senior bishops sit in the House of Lords, making a major contribution to Parliament's work.)
Cardinal John Henry Newman, perhaps the greatest Anglican theologian, was familiar with such questions of authority when he helped start the Oxford Movement. Newman and a few of others started this movement to return the Anglican Church to its early roots.
Newman's attempts to link the modern Christian faith with the early Church affirmed many of the doctrines rejected in the Reformation. In the end, Newman was convinced that the first Christians professed the same beliefs practiced by the modern Catholic Church and that the Catholic Church taught with divine authority. Newman eventually concluded that the Church of England was in schism and that Rome was the only valid successor to the historical and ecclesiastical claims of the early Church.
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