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Revelation! 666 is not the number of the beast (it's a devilish 616)
niburu.nl ^ | 01 May 2005 | Tom Anderson

Posted on 05/03/2005 9:11:57 PM PDT by Destro

Revelation! 666 is not the number of the beast (it's a devilish 616)

By Tom Anderson

01 May 2005

A newly discovered fragment of the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament indicates that, as far as the Antichrist goes, theologians, scholars, heavy metal groups, and television evangelists have got the wrong number. Instead of 666, it's actually the far less ominous 616.

The new fragment from the Book of Revelation, written in ancient Greek and dating from the late third century, is part of a hoard of previously unintelligible manuscripts discovered in historic dumps outside Oxyrhynchus in Egypt. Now a team of expert classicists, using new photographic techniques, are finally deciphering the original writing.

Professor David Parker, Professor of New Testament Textual Criticism and Paleography at the University of Birmingham, thinks that 616, although less memorable than 666, is the original. He said: "This is an example of gematria, where numbers are based on the numerical values of letters in people's names. Early Christians would use numbers to hide the identity of people who they were attacking: 616 refers to the Emperor Caligula."

The Book of Revelation is traditionally considered to be written by John, a disciple of Jesus; it identifies 666 as the mark of the Antichrist. In America, the fundamentalist Christian right often use the number in sermons about the coming Apocalypse.

They and satanists responded coolly to the new "Revelation". Peter Gilmore, High Priest of the Church of Satan, based in New York, said: "By using 666 we're using something that the Christians fear. Mind you, if they do switch to 616 being the number of the beast then we'll start using that."


TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Orthodox Christian; Other Christian; Religion & Science; Skeptics/Seekers; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: 616; 666; antichrist; revelation
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1 posted on 05/03/2005 9:12:01 PM PDT by Destro
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To: Destro
While most manuscripts of the Bible read six-hundred-sixty-six or 666 for the Number of the Beast in verse 18, some early manuscripts contain 616 instead. Codex C (5th century), Papyrus 115 (3rd or 4th century), and some copies of Irenaeus's works have 616.
2 posted on 05/03/2005 9:14:10 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: Destro

Darn funny!


3 posted on 05/03/2005 9:15:19 PM PDT by bonfire (dwindler)
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To: Destro
666 and all that.
4 posted on 05/03/2005 9:16:10 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Destro

Just damn! Someone better call Iron Maiden...


5 posted on 05/03/2005 9:23:06 PM PDT by TheSpottedOwl (Free Mexico!)
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To: Destro

Whew! I don't have to freak out any more when I pump $6.66 worth of gas into my car. ... Oh, wait, it's been a couple of years since $6.66 worth of gas got me out of the filling station parking lot.


6 posted on 05/03/2005 9:29:57 PM PDT by SittinYonder (Tancredo and I wanna know what you believe)
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To: SittinYonder

Better start freakin' baby, (about the price of gas that is).

On the other hand I'd love to know how 616 is determined to be pinpointed on Caligula.

Interesting though, 616 ads up to 13.

Ewwww.


7 posted on 05/03/2005 10:01:50 PM PDT by Beowulf9
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To: Destro

Interestingly, this is not new St. Irenaeus cited this and refuted it.


8 posted on 05/03/2005 10:58:03 PM PDT by nickcarraway (I'm Only Alive, Because a Judge Hasn't Ruled I Should Die...)
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To: Destro

Hmm. While 666 is not, 616 is an area code. Gotta be in a blue state. LOL.


9 posted on 05/03/2005 11:35:44 PM PDT by Zack Attack
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To: nickcarraway

Nero. Yes?


10 posted on 05/04/2005 12:08:07 AM PDT by D-fendr
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To: Destro

I KNEW there was something significant about the 616 Bill Clinton had on his forehead.


11 posted on 05/04/2005 2:55:52 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: Destro

50. Missed it by that much...


12 posted on 05/04/2005 3:03:31 AM PDT by TADSLOS (Right Wing Infidel since 1954)
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To: Destro

Ov vey. Some pinhead archaeologist *thinks* it's 616 and this calls for a sensationalistic headline? Puh leeze.

6 is the number of man, in Biblical numerology, and 3 is the number of completion, or perfection. So 3 6's (666) represents the ideal of man without God, or against God. It was first put into political form at Babel, and the struggle of history has been the resistance of man's agenda (selfishness) to God's agenda.

It's not that arcane, really. Revelation is a great book, if you understand it.


13 posted on 05/04/2005 3:10:16 AM PDT by ovrtaxt (...a sheep in wolf's clothing)
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To: D-fendr

Actually, I think Domitian is the Roman emperor who qualified as one having the spirit of antichrist. There have been many...


14 posted on 05/04/2005 3:12:03 AM PDT by ovrtaxt (...a sheep in wolf's clothing)
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To: ovrtaxt

Your right on both counts,
the number of completion is 666 and yes the archaeologist is a pinhead!


15 posted on 05/04/2005 4:29:45 AM PDT by pro610 (Faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains.Praise Jesus Christ!)
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To: ovrtaxt
6 is the number of man, in Biblical numerology, and 3 is the number of completion, or perfection. So 3 6's (666) represents the ideal of man without God, or against God.

Right - that's explicit in the text. How did I miss that?

Textual criticism has always had to deal with textual variants like this.

16 posted on 05/04/2005 4:50:26 AM PDT by jude24 ("Stupid" isn't illegal - but it should be.)
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To: nickcarraway; Destro
There was a thread on this earlier. I do remember some translations having 616 in the notes for the number of the beast.

I know that Hebrew uses letters as numbers, does Greek do this also? I mean maybe the 616 is similar (more so) to 666 in Greek.
17 posted on 05/04/2005 5:02:18 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Destro

Stuid metric system.


18 posted on 05/04/2005 5:35:21 AM PDT by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: Destro; P-Marlowe; jude24

I remember studying this difference between 666 and 616 as far back as seminary and even before. It has been known for some time.

Obviously, most translators have gone with the 666 variant because it had the best support as the most likely original number used. There was some discussion.

If this is a new manuscript find, and if it is found to reflect strong evidence for the 616 number, then so be it.

My sense, though, is that this fragment will be found to fall with a family of manuscripts already considered....we're told it dates to nearly 300 AD. That would be some 200 years after the writing of Revelation.

Incidentally, our "oldest copy of the NT" doesn't necessarily reflect the orignal better than does a later copy.

For example, I could have a photocopy of edition 10 published in 1970 by copied in 1980. The edition was later lost. I could also have a photocopy of edition 7 but photocopied in 1990. That edition was later lost. Now I'm stuck with 2 photocopies.

Of those two existing photocopies, which is a better representation of the original document?


19 posted on 05/04/2005 7:03:12 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: Destro

I have long read about the disputes as to whether the number of the beast was 666 or 616. Several early parchments have each.

I've a fan of biblical esoterism: The key to unlocking the meaning of a number is in the bible itself. Where ELSE does six hundred sixty-six get mentionned in the bible? Well, there's hundreds of mentions of how many descendents of so-and-so there are, so it doesn't seem too noteworthy that an otherwise anonymous man named Adonikam had 666 children.

But there's another! Revelations talks at great lengths about the "mother of harlots," (Rev 17-19) who fornicated with all the kings of the earth, becoming drunk on sexuality, and the goods of foreign trade. In fact, it is for trade that people accepted the mark of the beast (Rev 13-15): "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

So, we have the mark clearly associated with trade in general, and particularly, it is sinful trade that is a major source of God's wrath.

That brings us to the OTHER reference to 666:
"And when the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon concerning the name of the LORD, she came to prove him with hard questions. And she came to Jerusalem with a very great train, with camels that bare spices, and very much gold, and precious stones: and when she was come to Solomon, she communed with him of all that was in her heart. And Solomon told her all her questions: there was not [any] thing hid from the king, which he told her not. And when the queen of Sheba had seen all Solomon's wisdom, and the house that he had built, And the meat of his table, and the sitting of his servants, and the attendance of his ministers, and their apparel, and his cupbearers, and his ascent by which he went up unto the house of the LORD; there was no more spirit in her... And king Solomon gave unto the queen of Sheba all her desire, whatsoever she asked, beside [that] which Solomon gave her of his royal bounty. So she turned and went to her own country, she and her servants. Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold, Beside [that he had] of the merchantmen, and of the traffick of the spice merchants, and of all the kings of Arabia, and of the governors of the country."

Now, Sheba was not evil. She praised and loved God because she had heard such marvelous reports of Solomon's wisdom. But Solomon turned away from God, and built up a mighty army, and began to tax his people very heavily in later years for its upkeep. It is this tax that ultimately tore Israel assunder and led to its conquest.


20 posted on 05/04/2005 9:13:55 AM PDT by dangus
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