Russian Orthodox Patriarch Reacts to Election of Benedict XVI

National Catholic Reporter ^ | April 25, 2005 | Stacy Meichtry

[TaxachusettsMan]

You doubt that Alexy would have minded JP II going to Moscow?

You don't get out enough!

Like I said, What else do we need to kiss?

What else shall we send via courier-Cardinal?

And my last paragraph - maybe others reading this have experienced the same - refers to the fact that I have OFTEN met Orthodox folks deeply resentful of Rome's past sins and present foibles -- only to find out they're RECENT CONVERTS who, of all people, should be bring NEW BLOOD to their new church, not having transfusions of BAD BLOOD for offenses they've never suffered.

Maybe it's just my experience, but the ANTI-Romanism of these folks is sometimes quite spectacular!

[Agrarian]

"No anger, just puzzlement why the RC's here want the Orthodox to join them so badly that it angers them?"

You have put precise words onto inchoate thoughts that have been rumbling about my head for months since encountering all this here on FR. Thank you.

I personally find the Roman Catholic church interesting, and I very much admire the new Pope, as I think you know from my other posts.

But as many of us have said on other threads, there can be no question of reunion until an Orthodox Christian and a Roman Catholic can walk into each other's churches and immediately recognize that this is the same faith and the same spirit, even if the Western and Eastern forms have differences. This isn't even remotely the case right now, so what's there to talk about? At this point, the main thing is to have fraternity and "just get along."

[Agrarian]

Violence and physical coersion went both ways, and was reprehensible in every instance. As to whose violence was worse than the other, I really have no idea. I'll take your word for it that the Orthodox were worse.

[Lion in Winter]

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU????

Don't you get it...the Orthodox Christians that I know have NO intention of becoming RC. In fact, they see your church as demanding and rude. And, they see some RCC members, as very rude indeed. You fit THAT bill to a 'T'.

Get over yourself. Apparently, The Orthodox CHRISTIANS DO NOT want to be united with RCC either in the USA or in Greece or in Russia or in Serbia or in Romania or in Bulgaria or in Ethiopia.. or ANYPLACE!! THAT IS A PLAIN AS THE NOSE ON YOUR FACE.

You make rude comments about EOC their converts in the USA. You sound jealous!!!

I am OFFEDED by your tone, your style and your comments!! You make fun of my Protestant Church too.

Are such a GOOD CHRISTIAN that YOU are allowed to be rude to other Christians???

You are a sad specimen. I actually feel sorry for you.

People like you are just plain bitter!!

[katnip]

This isn't even remotely the case right now, so what's there to talk about? At this point, the main thing is to have fraternity and "just get along."

That's the way I see it.

I think to some, the Orthodox church is a mysterious enemy that must be vanquished, torn down to a lower level. I don't know why.

We're at peace where we are I guess and don't think we're missing out on anything.

[Thorin]

>>>>At this point, the main thing is to have fraternity and "just get along."

I would welcome a union between my Church and the Orthodox churches, but I have the sense many Orthodox would not. Since that is the case, I certainly agree with you on the importance of fraternity.

[Agrarian]

I'm certainly sorry that you've encountered anti-Romanism amongst recent Orthodox converts. I likewise apologize for offense given by anything I have written.

There is a simple explanation, though: "ethnic" cradle Orthodox (like "ethnic" cradle Catholics) tend to be Democrats or apolitical. FR is a politically conservative forum, and most political conservatives in the US are Protestant, with a growing number of Catholics. Not a few of the most fire-brand Catholics one encounters, btw, are also converts. Zealousness goes with the convert territory.

So when things are posted that are perceived as attacking Orthodoxy or Orthodox leaders on FR, the most likely people to respond are going to be converts to Orthodoxy who are either former Protestants or former Roman Catholics. No big surprise here. It shouldn't be any surprise that recent converts are less than polished in their responses, but neither should it surprise you that if you say something that Orthodox disagree with or think is unfair, that at least someone is going to say something.

As to the insulting question of "What else do we need to kiss?", the proper question in response is "who asked Catholics to kiss anything?" Who is initiating all of this would-be reunion/ecumenical stuff? Show me evidence that the Orthodox have ever initiated any of this, saying, "please just return the Kazan icon and we'll join up with you...." or what-not.

I really don't see why we just can't agree to disagree about the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, get along, and concentrate on having a good time bashing liberals together.

[Agrarian]

"but I have the sense many Orthodox would not"

The vast majority of informed and devout Orthodox -- clergy and laity, convert or "cradle", would not accept union with Rome, for the reason that I mentioned in the post you responded to. And if the people won't accept it, the hierarchy won't do it, since by definition, the final "defenders of the faith" in the Orthodox Church are the faithful. We are taught this, we believe it, and we take it seriously.

I think that most Roman Catholics haven't spent enough time in Orthodox Churches and talking to Orthodox Christians to understand why this is -- this is not a criticism (for a devout Roman Catholic is going to be at Mass on Sunday, not "church-hopping"), but just a statement of fact.

By contrast, Catholicism is a big enough presence here in America that most Orthodox are pretty thoroughly exposed to Catholicism.

I'm glad you agree with the importance of fraternity. If you find me not acting in accordance with it, let me know!

[annalex]

explain me the difference

I'll try to sketch it, at the risk of making someone angry.

The Catholics see the separated churches in three ways. The Orthodox are the closest, because the doctrinal differences are bridgeable (albeit very real) and they have an apostolic succession of priests going back to St. Peter. The Catholics are allowed by Rome to take Orthodox communion where a Catholic communion is not avaliable and the Orthodox -- to take Catholic communion. The Orthodox don't reciprocate. Generally, the Catholics tend to view the differences as bridgeable and the Orthodox as unbridgeable.

The Anglicans (American Episcopalians) used to be considered as close if not closer than the Orthodox. The theology was virtually the same, and they had apostolic succession of priests. The differences were that the Anglicans would not recognize the primacy of the Pope. The communion was, I believe, mutually available. However, the Anglican church began to ordain women and practicing homosexuals, and is on its way to bless homosexual "marriage". This broke the apostolic succession and put them in gross violation of the Church Doctrine. At this point only some remnant of the Anglican church is a possible candidate for union.

Finally, there are numerous Protestant denominations big and small. The degree of doctrinal disagreement varies, but in all cases is not bridgeable. The doctrinal differences are rejection of priesthood -- not just the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, but priesthood altogether, incompatible interpretation of the communion, rejection of other sacraments beside Baptism, and often heretical theologies of salvation.

[lizol]

The Catholics are allowed by Rome to take Orthodox communion where a Catholic communion is not avaliable and the Orthodox -- to take Catholic communion.

Sorry if I got you wrong, but - as far as I remember from posts posted by Orthodox FReepers in other threads - neither situation is accetable for them. So - no faithful Orthodox will take a Catholic communion and an Orthodox priest will not give an Orthodox one to a Catholic.

[annalex]

You are correct. This is what I meant by saying that "The Orthodox don't reciprocate".

[sergey1973]

When Bolsheviks came to power in 1917, thousands and thousands of Russian Orthodox priests and monks were brutally and sadistically murdered or thrown into Concentration Camps. Russian Orthodox Patriarch Tikhon issued an anathema against Bolshevik Regime and for that he was periodically imprisoned and harrassed. His death in 1925 was rumored to be orchestrated by the Bolshevik Regime.

http://www.roca.org/oa/18/18e.htm

The current official Russian Orthodox church headed by Alexy II came into existence as the result of pro-Bolshevik collaborative schismatic movement within Orthodoxy supported by Bolshevik regime. In 1920's, a certain number of Bishops chose to collaborate with Bolsheviks in one way or the other. After the Tikhon death and with assistance of the new regime, the collaborators essentially took over Moscow Patriarchate thus taking over the leadership of Russian Orthodox Church. Some of these Bishops chose collaboration in hope of preserving the Church in some form, but as the result of the collaboration with fanatically atheistic and totalitarian Bolshevik authorities, the official Russian Orthodox Church under the Bolshevik leadership became a tool used by the regime for their un-Godly purposes. This collaboration resulted in split between official Russian Orthodox Church who proclaimed loyalty to Bolsheviks and the refugees from Bolshevism in Europe who set up Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

Overall, Orthodoxy, like Catholicism, across centuries, had its martyrs, Holy People, great intellectuals and villains. Orthodox and Catholic churches have generally cordial relations here in America because US does not have state religion and does not play one religion against the other. When Orthodox Church in Russia will be divorced from State Powers, I'm sure the friendship with Catholics will become almost a certainty.

[lizol]

Okay. I misundertood you.

[wimpycat]

Alexy ruled out the possibility of inviting Benedict to Russia in the near future, calling on the new pope to address the proselytizing of Orthodox followers by Catholic missionaries that he alleges went on during John Paul's reign.:

There's nothing like a little competition to keep you on your toes, Father. You just need to try harder. That's the beauty of a capitalist system, and it's the beauty of freedom of religion. You're just not used to either of those concepts yet.

[MarMema]

Nothing like preying on your "sister church" and "second lung" to bring trust to a relationship either.

[Lion in Winter]

I am so sorry that some, so-called Christians on this thread have forgotten that this is your Holy Week and chose to attack your Church, its members , its converts and its leaders.

[Lion in Winter]

I understand your Church( ROCOR) is not recognised by the Greek Patriarch. Is that true?

[Lion in Winter]

When do you expect the RC to start having HUGE revival meetings and begin sending RC missionaries into ALL of Western Europe in order to regain their lost members and gain converts?

It certainly would help to defeat the "new soviet union west", you know... the EU in its efforts to discard CHRIST from European life.

[NYer]

Thank you for this great post! It is a reminder of how 'stubborness' can permeate our lives and overtake what we know to be true in our souls.

From Zenit News Agency:

Date: 2005-04-21

Russian Catholics Invite Pope to Visit

MOSCOW, APRIL 21, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Catholic Archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz of the Archdiocese of the Mother of God of Moscow has invited the newly Pope Benedict XVI to visit Russia.

A message sent to the Holy Father expresses "the hope of a visit of yours to Russia … to reaffirm us in the faith and to develop the dialogue with the Russian Orthodox Church."

"I wish to assure you, Holiness, that Russian Catholics will support you with their prayers and will ask the Lord to give you the physical and spiritual strength" to realize "the difficult mission that has been entrusted to you," he adds.

Archbishop Kondrusiewicz also wrote a letter, which will be read in parishes during next Sunday's Mass, in which he mentions that some books of then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, such as "Introduction to Christianity," are very popular in Russia.

The prelate believes that Benedict XVI will help the Church of today "to find the remedy against the pernicious influence of secularism and relativism."


Archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz

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[NYer]

If we are going to reunite all Christians, why start with Orthodox? There are many more non-catholic churches in the world. Why bother so much about Orthodox Christians?

Catholics and Orthodox are the closest, doctrinally.