Posted on 03/23/2005 6:39:05 AM PST by arrogantduck
What do you when 3000 persons respond to a sermon and want to be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins? What do you do when this number of 3000 is added to daily?...
"I believe God will be just in His judgement. If a person was baptised by sprinkling and they in their hearts believed they were following the will of God, then God will judge them on that basis"
Agreed. This, too, is catholic teaching. We are to follow our conscience - properly formed, of course.
"I think if you really read the Bible, you should conclude that it should be done in the name of Jesus and by immersion."
Again, I agree with you, it SHOULD be done that way. It is not any less effective, however, with sprinkling. God, not the water, is the catalyst. I ask you to recall the story of Naaman in the OT. "Is that all"? "Why are the waters of the Jordan any better". Then, he realized it was not the water itself, but the power of God that effected his healing.
Regards
That is true
You still did not answer my question. Is it possible to become a Christian without having your sins washed away?
That's a pretty vague quetion. Do you mean is it possible for immersion in water to wash away sins?
Verse 26 tells us that we become sons of God through faith. How do we do that?
I'd say we do it by believing He rose from the dead and following His command to love one's neighbor.
Is it possible to become a Christian without putting on Christ?
Do you mean that in a literal sense i.e. wearing Christ like a cloak -- and if so do you believe that the bread and wine (you take wine right?) at the Lord's Supper is His literal body and blood?
I stayed out of that one.
" They believe that salvation comes before baptism and that baptism is nessecary only for the gift of the Holy Spirit. "
What says the scripture?
Concerning gifts of the Holy Spirit..."These signs shall FOLLOW them that believe..."MARK 16
Yet...
Cornelius received the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was baptized.
Yet PAUL said...
"For Christ sent me NOT to baptize but to Preach the word..."
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved!
If you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is LORD and believe in your heart that GOD has raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED!
Nuf said.
"You can be secure in Jesus. You don't have to wonder if you are good enough or if you can maintain a certain amount of works. "
Read BONDAGE OF THE WILL by Martin Luther..(xviii)Of the comfort of knowing that salvation does not depend on free-will.
"If I lived and worked to all eternity my consience would never reach comfortable certainty as to how much it must do to satisfy God. What ever work I had done, there would still be a nagging doubt as to whether it pleased God, or whether He required something more."
Romans 6:3-11 "3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether Jew or greek, we have been made to drink of one spirit.....
Lets make the above easier to understand and see if it makes sense..
Romans 6:3-11 "3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into WATER were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into WATER, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Somehow, this just does not convey the same meaning as the origional of one being crucified and burried with Christ
If someone, however, is witnessed to and changes his life in such a way that the fruit of the spirit is evident -- love, joy, peace, etc. -- where he was once led by his sinful nature, and he's clearly unashamed of the Risen Christ, I would not dare refuse to call that person a Christian even if his baptism was via infusion, or even if he didn't have a water baptism at all.
"I think if you really read the Bible, you should conclude that it should be done in the name of Jesus and by immersion." AMEN, AMEN !!!!
to TheTruthess: lots of good posts, well done!
to arrogantduck: hope you've gotten thoroughly convinced on this subject. Here's some scraps from me, if you're still hungry.
TIME TO PREACH!
One thing that convinces me (but not as powerfully as my own conversion) is the knock down, drag out, effort of multitudes through the centuries to lessen the importance of baptism. A little child doesn't argue with Jesus. He commanded it, so do it. That's as much as believing in him as that he died, was buried, and was resurrected. His word and himself are inseperable. The emphasis is as plain as the scriptures that proclaim them.
The real problem of "just believe" (and saying that what He commanded is not important), is that by refuting the Lord's (and his apostles') demands on water baptism, is rebellion (knowingly or ignorantly) against God. The Bible says that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.
God demands faith, but through the history of man, has used different tests to prove they have it.
What if:
Able chose to not offer an acceptable sacrifice,
Abram chose to stay in Haran,
Noah chose not to build the ark,
Moses chose to stay with the sheep of his father-in-law,
David didn't repent after Uriah?
Their names would have been replaced by others in Hebrews chap. 11. We are in physical bodies, we cannot have faith without moving a muscle. Faith requires action!
WHAT ABOUT THIS PERSON, OR THAT SITUATION, ETC.? We can sit and judge souls til Jesus comes, and in that, be sinning, for that is God's job, not ours. When one knows the Truth, that person's job is to love and obey it, and be a witness to it. Emotion is good, but don't let it blurr one's vision!
The Word shows us HOW to believe.
I met my wife 26 and a half years ago, messed up on my first chance to find where she lived after being told to follow her home (she told me how to believe, so to speak). But with some determination (they that hunger and thirst) and a second witness to where her home was located, I found my way there. Guess what? I didn't have to be told those directions ever again. She would just say those magic words, "come on over" (believe) and I was there. (Yeah, I kinda ignored the posted speed limits, most of the time.)
WHAT EVERYONE NEEDS TO REMEMBER IS: THAT THE DEVIL NO DOUBT SAW THE COMMANDS OF BAPTISM, BY JESUS, PETER, PHILIP, ANINIAS, AND PAUL AS A MUST FOR SALVATION. HE PROMPTLY WENT ABOUT SOWING CONFUSION ON THE ISSUE. REMISSION OF SINS IS PARAMOUNT, AND SATAN KNOWS THIS. "BURIED WITH HIM" IS HOW YOU GET THE BLOOD APPLIED TO YOUR SOUL. THAT'S WHY THE SCRIPURES SAY IT IS FOR REMISSION OF SINS.
The Word is complete. The OT and the NT compliment each other. I had a correspondent tell me there is nothing in the OT to back up water baptism and it's essentiallity. I pointed out several types and shadows of " death, burial, and resurrection:
CREATION: the earth was void (lifeless, dead) and completely covered (buried) with water. God's spirit moved on the waters (if God's not in it, forget it) and life came forth.
THE FLOOD: The world was immersed water, the sins of the world were washed away. New life began again.
THE EXODUS: The people "were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea". 1 Cor.10:2. note the word "all".
THE TABERNACLE: The priests were to wash before being of any service to the Lord (or they would defile the sacrifice by their uncleanness).
NAMAAN THE SYRIAN: He at first mocked the command of dipping in the Jordan river. But when he obeyed (believed) his flesh (let's face it, as a leper, he was as good as dead) became as that of a little child. Talk about a fresh start!
JONAH: He and the others on the ship were as good as dead, because of Jonah's sin. So He had to be buried (at sea), and the Lord's wrath was quenched (the seas calmed and the sailors lives saved). Jonah was "resurrected" a new and determined man. (I still try to picture the scene of him preaching with such power and conviction that the whole city of Ninevah believed him and repented. Yes, he had his post revival pout, but it kept him from getting a big head.) The Lord Jesus placed great emphasis on Jonah's type and shadow.
JESUS: He is the great example. At his baptism: "Suffer it to be so now; for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness." Jesus needed to be baptised? Just believe it.
IN CONCLUSION:
The devil has done a great job of "hiding the book" from the masses through the centuries. When cleaning the temple, the priests found the long lost book of the law. (2Kings chap 22 & 23) when Josiah realized they were in error with their faith (that's putting it mildly), he ordered things be corrcted (believing as the sciptures hath said).
There have always been people somewhere in this world, that are hungry for God. They are willing to love Him more than their mother, father, siblings, or even a religious order built on man-made compromises.
When one is anchored in the Truth, the peace and contentment is simply unmatched by any man-made religious ritual. The Holy Ghost infilling (one's own personal resurrection) is incredible. But this thread is about water baptism and therefore I close for now. Goodnight.
Zuriel
Do you think Judas actually ever HAD salvation in the first place?
Interesting topic. I was raised Baptist and had always been taught that salvation did not include baptism, but was just the outward sign that you had accepted Christ. As I read the scriptures over and over I begin to wonder if that is really the case. Sometimes we just believe what we are taught by the particular denomination or religion we align ourselves with.
You really need to read the Bible yourself. It is amazing how many Pastors probably have never read the whole Bible.
Very good! Thanks for the post.
The water itself does not do anything. The Bible never claims that it does. However, submitting to the Lord's command to be baptized is how we have our sins washed away.
Your opinion on what Galatians 3:26 means doesn't matter. What matters is what the Bible says. In the very next verse, we are told how we "become sons of God through faith". It is by being baptized into Christ.
Verse 27 spells out how you put on Christ. It is by being baptized into Christ. Did you miss that part?
That is your opinion, but unfortunately, your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to salvation. It is in direct contrast to the teaching of Scripture.
Please answer me this. If baptism is not required for salvation, then why is there not a single instance of a conversion in the book of Acts that does not involve baptism? We have 10 instances of conversion in Acts, and of belief, repentance, confession, and baptism, only baptism is listed explicitly in all 10 accounts. Do you really think that is a coincidence?
Spectacular lesson! Thank you for sharing your knowledge and ability to present the scripture for the Truth that It is! I have been encouraged by your post and hope everyone else has.
I pray the Lord continues to guide you in your efforts to speak Truth.
Lea
Acts 16:30-33 Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
v.32 then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.
v. 33 ...then immediately he and all his family were baptized.
Stop quoting scripture out of context!
Even the devil and his angels believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He came to save the world. So is Satan saved?
thank You, but I have never been confused. I know that baptism is essential for salvation I just wanted views from both sides to help me convince my preacher and one of our leaders. I appreciate the time and your thoughts.
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