Posted on 03/04/2005 4:15:27 PM PST by kosta50
Wonderful post. Thanks.
I tend to counsel people that FORGIVENESS IS FIRST AND FOREMOST A CHOICE.
And, that it is essential for our emotional, psychological and spiritual health and welfare as well as regarding eternal life.
That we must CHOOSE moment by moment at every thought to TAKE EACH THOUGHT CAPTIVE; TO RESIST THE ENEMY and to CHOOSE TO FORGIVE again at that moment.
And, of course, as you note, to ask God to change our hearts and make it real in our hearts and emotions etc.
But I think--by The Spirit's grace, it must begin with our will--choosing to release the other person to God's mercies and disciplines according to God's priorities and perfect judgment.
There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that somehow God is more freed to deal with the other person when we bow out of our judgment high horse and allow the other person to be somehow more fully on God's altar or at least more face to face with God because we have quit encasing them in our resentment, judgment, bitterness, unforgiveness etc.
Also, that forgiveness is first and foremost for us. The unforgiven person may not care a flip about how we feel toward them. But God does and it poisons our bodies and our souls.
Thanks much.
BTW, you may be interested in this fascinating phenomena described in this post/thread:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1356926/posts?page=8
Thank you Quix on your kind words. I believe you summed it up very well when you say "Also, that forgiveness is first and foremost for us." Forgivness and mercy makes us free. It is the ultimate realization that we are not the judge.
Thank you for the link. I have skimmed over it for now, but I have saved it for later reference and indepth reading.
As I suspected, Max paid much more attention than did Tobie. Max is very spiritual. At one point, he sat down on the floor and started crying. He said he felt "unloved." I used to have that feeling as a child, and I still do at times--I attribute it to being separated from God. I explained to him that he was feeling his "God-hole" and that it was because he was in such a holy place that he felt it more keenly. Tobie was pretty much oblivious to the whole atmosphere.
I loved it. I had to mind the boys on and off, but I got to listen and pray during much of the service. I liked all the singing and the fact that the whole service felt of one piece. The service didn't feel as "separated" as the Anglican liturgy, where there is clearly the first part, centering around the readings and the second part, with the Eucharist. And it felt more participatory; I didn't get bored the way I sometimes do at Anglican worship.
I felt like I was in a spiritual, holy place, but in an ordinary way, if that makes sense. Ordinary in the sense of this is what happens every time these people gather together and worship. There was no sense of people being there just because it is Sunday and you go to church. No sense of people watching other people or just going through the motions.
I felt left out because I couldn't take the Eucharist. I have a very Catholic spirituality--I'm baptized into the one Church, a confessing Christian...I wanted to be a part of the Eucharistic feast. Oh well.
I think we will either go back to this same church next Sunday or go to an Antiochan Orthodox Church that is nearby. Thank you for your prayers. We felt them.
My gosh! What were you doing up at 4 AM? Whew! You're a better FReeper than I am!
I think Max was responding to the feeling of being in a divine space when he began crying.
I forgot to add, Great Lent starts a week from Monday. The cycle of Sunday Liturgies, Wednesday Liturgies of the Pre Snactified Gifts and the various Vespers and Akathists leading up to and including Great Week and the Resurrection teach virtually all the Faith. Its a great time to learn about Orthodoxy.
Tell Max that even old men cry at the Divine Liturgy. Of course we have more to cry about than 7 year olds!
I thought it started today? This is a week to give up meat, right? Does that include fish (I'm a vegetarian, anyway). And should I cover my head when we go back?
Thanks to both of you for the uplifting posts.
As always, you are quite welcome, dear lady!
Joy of All Who Sorrow is within the bulgarian diocese (diocese, is that correct?). All of the women had their heads covered. There were a couple in the big black gowns that cover everthing except the face. There is another one we might check out, St John the forerunner--it is an Evangelical Orthodox Church, now part of the Orthodox Church in America.
The dairy would be hard--I live on yogurt, but I also drink soy milk. Honestly, as long as chocolate and wheat thins aren't restricted, I wouldn't even notice. Hmmm. I should probably give one of those up, eh? I don't have very good eating habits.
Let me know if you'd like the number, I'll freepmail you, probably should have done that with this email, but I think other people, if they're lurking, might like to know of the place too.
Thanks. I have plenty of scarves, if I decide to cover my head. I was just wondering if head coverings were standard in every parish, or dependent upon parish choice.
Regarding communion, you are feeling the effecs of the Schism. It is real, and it hurts -- it hurts us as well, not to be able to share the fullness of our experience with others, but it is how it has to be. Anglicans consider the chalice to be a means to achieve unity -- Orthodox consider the shared chalice rather to be the ultimate sign and reflection of complete unity. It is the Body and Blood of Christ, and we can share it only with other Orthodox Christians, who share the totality of faith and practice with us.
I, too, am curious about the jurisdiction of the parish you visited, since there was one thing you mentioned that I haven't seen anywhere before. Respond privately, if you prefer.
It is interesting that you immediately noticed the "seamless" quality of Orthodox services. People are often surprised at the fact that services which are so "regimented" (none of the clergy have the freedom to what they want -- every reading and every hymn is appointed in the rubrics) are simultaneously so relaxed, for want of a better term. The combination of deep reverence and comfortableness is different from the western "high-church" approach, at least that which I have been exposed to.
For what it's worth, I'll pass on the advice that was given to me, and that I've heard many priests and experienced Orthodox Christians give others: over time, visit every Orthodox parish in your area -- even those you think you won't be interested in (unless someone "in the know" specifically warns you off from one or more.) Each parish has a slightly different "flavor," and you never know where your family might feel most comfortable visiting for a while.
I would also like to echo Kolokotronis's recommendation to consider some of the special weekday Lenten services. There are some different things about these services, such as the congregation making full prostrations at certain points in these penitential services (which you don't need to do when you're visiting -- just grab a place to stand in the back at weekday services.) Also, don't forget Saturday night Vespers, if they are available at any of your local parishes. These are very popular services amongst explorers, since there is no communion, and since there is a lot of variable material with lots of theology expressed in the course of the prayers. We have a Catholic priest, an Anglican priest, and a Methodist minister who regularly attend our Saturday night Vespers services. The Anglican priest, now retired, is now coming to Liturgy as well. The Vespers service is also shorter than Liturgy (A Russian parish with "Vigil" will have a longer Saturday night service, but it is something that you can feel free leaving after having been there for an hour -- lots of the "natives" with children do the same.)
Just some thoughts... Sounds like things went well, and again, thank you so much for sharing your experience with us.
I was taught in seminary (in theology class) that the Eucharist is at once the forerunner and actuation of the Eucharistic banquet in Heaven. It is both "now" and "not yet." But then, I was taught by a very high church professor.
I understand the rule; I just don't like it.
What was the thing I mentioned that you haven't seen anywhere before?
As someone who converted to Orthodox many years ago and had to learn to fast as an adult, I can't agree with Kolokotronis strongly enough -- take it easy and go slow. The first step, which can take quite a while, is to learn how to do without meat. Doing without fish and dairy products is the hardest step, and I honestly wouldn't recommend jumping into that unless you decide that you are going to formally become a catechumen.
It took us years to get to the point where we were keeping the fast fully as a complete family, and even now I confess to eating fish more than is "officially" allowed. This is pretty common "corner-cutting" in the northern Slavic traditions, since non-backboned seafood (which the Greeks have in relative abundance) were not traditionally available as sources of supplemental protein in those countries.
Just enjoy the services, read good material, get to know local Orthodox Christians, and let nature take its course...
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