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Clergy who deny doctrine may face trial for heresy
VirtueOnline-News ^ | 12/15/2005 | Jonathan Petre

Posted on 02/15/2005 7:50:06 AM PST by sionnsar

LONDON (2/15/2005)--Clergy who deny the existence of God and other key doctrines could soon face heresy trials in the Church of England.

Proposals to set up tribunals to try doctrinal cases were rejected by the Synod last year but the House of Laity overwhelmingly voted yesterday to reintroduce them.

Members of the House, who were meeting before the full Synod began, criticised liberal clergy for diluting traditional teaching, though one said that they did not propose burning heretics at the stake.

The House of Bishops has independently agreed to reintroduce the proposals, which were defeated by a narrow margin last July after clergy expressed fears that they would be victims of a witchhunt.

Margaret Brown, a lay member from the Chichester diocese, said yesterday that the original proposals had been thrown out partly because they had tried to deal with broad issues such as clergy wearing the incorrect vestments.

"It is far, far worse if we have a clergyman or clergywoman in the pulpit and they are preaching heresy and do not believe in the tenets of the faith, the Virgin Birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ and all the other tenets of the faith," she said.

"What is faith if we do not preach Christ crucified, Christ risen, Christ glorified? We will not get very far in winning souls for Christ, which is what we should be doing all the time.

"Let us make sure the liberals really do preach the word of God."

Peter LeRoy, of the diocese of Bath and Wells, reminded the laity of the usual definition of an Anglican as someone "who can believe anything they want as long as it is not too strongly".

He said heresy trials were essential to persuade clergy to endorse "sound teaching".

Quoting from a survey carried out in 2002 of what the Church of England believed in, he said just 76 per cent of clergy believed Jesus Christ died to take away the sins of the world, 68 per cent believed Jesus rose physically from the dead and 53 per cent believed faith in Jesus was the only way they could be saved. Among women clergy, the figures came in at about 10 per cent lower in each category.

"These figures are nothing less than astonishing and underlie the need for this measure," said Mr LeRoy.

He blamed Britain's "post-Enlightenment, pluralist, relativist Western culture to which we have succumbed".

Prudence Dailey, of the Oxford diocese, said: "You do not have to be a fundamentalist to admit that it is unlikely that the Holy Spirit supports guiding the Church into denying His existence."

She said that she was not suggesting that modern heretics should be "burned at the stake". But she added that such people should not be allowed to draw a stipend or receive official sanction to lead their flock astray.

Brigadier Ian Dobbie, of the Rochester diocese, said: "We need to raise the profile of doctrine in the Church. Sadly, our image is one of doctrinal indifferentism.

"We need to be reminded that belief is reflected in behaviour. Those who are weak in doctrine are most vulnerable to temptation. These proposals are not a thinly-disguised means for a disgruntled layman to be vindictive."

Tom Sutcliffe, of the diocese of Southwark, one of the few liberals to speak, said: "We need to take account of the fact that even liberals are performing a missionary function.

"When people say we have to draw the line somewhere it makes me very worried because we are going to draw a line where many people could be outside."

The proposals are set to be voted on at next year's Synod. If members approve the measure, it will then go before Parliament, where it will require primary legislation. Assuming it passes at Westminster, heresy trials could begin within five years.


TOPICS: Mainline Protestant
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["just 76 per cent of clergy believed Jesus Christ died to take away the sins of the world, 68 per cent believed Jesus rose physically from the dead and 53 per cent believed faith in Jesus was the only way they could be saved. Among women clergy, the figures came in at about 10 per cent lower in each category."]
1 posted on 02/15/2005 7:50:06 AM PST by sionnsar
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To: ahadams2; ladyinred; Siamese Princess; Brian Allen; kalee; walden; tjwmason; proud_2_B_texasgal; ...
Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams.

FReepmail sionnsar if you want on or off this list.
This is a moderately high-volume ping list (typically 3-7 pings/day).

Resource for Traditional Anglicans: http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com
Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15

2 posted on 02/15/2005 7:50:34 AM PST by sionnsar († trad-anglican.faithweb.com † || Iran Azadi || This part of this tagline is under construction.)
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To: sionnsar
Among women clergy, the figures came in at about 10 per cent lower in each category.

No surprise to me.

Because our former parish was the training parish for the diocese, I saw every woman ordained in the Diocese of Atlanta for a period of about 25 years. Of all those women, only one would I consider an effective priest.

The rest were a grab-bag of neurotics, feminists, radical lesbians, and ambitious climbers. So far as I could tell, most went into the priesthood to calm their own internal demons, prove a gender or sexual point, or gain status.

What most of them did NOT enter the priesthood for was to preach the Gospel and win souls to Christ. So it's no surprise that many of them don't believe in what they're being paid to profess.

Harsh judgment, perhaps, but that's the conclusion my observations led me to. I'm sure there are some good believing priestesses out there, but I didn't meet any (even the one that I felt was a good pastor has allowed herself to be swayed by her radical sistern into supporting Gene Robinson & gay "marriage".)

3 posted on 02/15/2005 8:04:46 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: sionnsar
But she added that such people should not be allowed to draw a stipend or receive official sanction to lead their flock astray.

The mission of a church is not to provide cozy livings for atheist philosophy majors. This is a tremendous step forward to take the church back from the Pikes and Spongs and Griswolds.

4 posted on 02/15/2005 8:05:25 AM PST by Sam the Sham
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To: sionnsar

Tom Sutcliffe, of the diocese of Southwark, one of the few liberals to speak, said: "We need to take account of the fact that even liberals are performing a missionary function."


YIKES! What is their mission? If it's not to proclaim the Gospel, it mustr not be the correct one.


5 posted on 02/15/2005 8:07:08 AM PST by kalee (Kalee's Tinfoil Bonnets, purveyor of stylish tinfoil bonnets.)
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: sionnsar
She said that she was not suggesting that modern heretics should be "burned at the stake".

I dunno. It seems a bit extreme, but it might get the rest back on the straight and narrow . . .

< /sarcasm for the gallows humor impaired >

7 posted on 02/15/2005 8:13:10 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: seamole

I agree that this would be wonderful to take to bishops; and you have an excellent point about Catholicism doing this before the Church of England.

On the flip side -- did it happen in the Roman Catholic Church here during the elections with Kerry and other politicians being admonished/warned not to approach the Communion rail because they would be denied Communion.

I'm pretty sure something even came down from Rome on Daschle. (Could be mistaken, though.) (I had a huge list on this before my computer crashed. Bah!)


8 posted on 02/15/2005 8:15:48 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: sionnsar
She said that she was not suggesting that modern heretics should be "burned at the stake".

I believe burning at the stake is initially a bit brash and would deny due process.

Due process in these types of cases is prescribed; tie them to a stone and through them in a pound, if they float they are heretics and can be burned, if they sink they were innocent.

9 posted on 02/15/2005 8:25:53 AM PST by usurper (Correct spelling is overrated)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: sionnsar

Malcolm Muggeridge called the Anglican clergy "the only job where the willingness to commit perjury is an occupational requirement."


11 posted on 02/15/2005 8:48:26 AM PST by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: seamole
Re: "OK, so who here thought that the CofE would be doing this BEFORE the Roman Catholic Church?"

So far it is just talk, don't you think it is a little to be patting them on the back. It is good to hear but....
Besides there is way more that they are doing besides denying the divinity of Christ. They deny the virgin birth, the Resurrection, or that he was even real. In so many ways they undermine the faith of the congregation. The 10 Commandments - forget it.

The Catholic Church is in Apostasy, at least some of it's leaders and Priests, but the doctrine is still sound. Things will get worse in the near future. When the Pope hesitated to strike the rock in 1960, like Moses hesitated it sealed the fate of the Church. All the other denominations are suffering because of the falling of the Church. This is the Church's last fall. We were warned at Fatima like Christ warned the weeping women on His way to Golgotha. The Vatican ignored the message of Fatima so now we are in Apostasy. Next comes the striping of the Church's raiment and clothing, our weakness frailties will be for all to see, then the Laws will be formed to restrict our freedom to act freely. A persecution and then seeming death to true Christian and Catholic faith. The Church must follow Christ. The question is; who will be the good thief and who will be the bad thief?
12 posted on 02/15/2005 8:52:42 AM PST by Mark in the Old South (Note to GOP "Deliver or perish" Re: Specter I guess the GOP "chooses" to perish)
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To: sionnsar
"When people say we have to draw the line somewhere it makes me very worried because we are going to draw a line where many people could be outside."

47% to be exact.

53 per cent believed faith in Jesus was the only way they could be saved.

13 posted on 02/15/2005 8:56:19 AM PST by Raycpa
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To: sionnsar

Very good news indeed.

Let me add this to the chorus of well-wishers from the Roman Catholic Church. The Holy Inquisition operated within the accepted prosecutorial practices of the time and country. The use of torture was common practice and in fact the Inquisition refrained from severe torture even when it was available in government courts. When popular witch-hunt hysteria raged, the Inquisition called for restraint and ended up denying the possibility of the existence of witches. When it reached a verdict of unrepented heresy, the convict was relaxed to the government courts, which interpreted heresy as national treason and ordered the execution.

The comparisons with the Inquisition will be made by the Left, but the Church of England should not fear them.


14 posted on 02/15/2005 8:59:31 AM PST by annalex
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To: sionnsar

Question: Will this proposal only deal with preaching from the pulpit in church and teachings in seminaries, or will it also apply to books, papers, and appearances on talk shows and such?

Many liberals are very good at "staying in the boundaries" when in the pulpit or teaching Sunday school while at the same time spreading their liberalism by promoting and participating in un-Christian causes and organizations on their "personal" time.


15 posted on 02/15/2005 9:22:32 AM PST by bobjam
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To: sionnsar
Quoting from a survey carried out in 2002 of what the Church of England believed in, he said just 76 per cent of clergy believed Jesus Christ died to take away the sins of the world, 68 per cent believed Jesus rose physically from the dead and 53 per cent believed faith in Jesus was the only way they could be saved. Among women clergy, the figures came in at about 10 per cent lower in each category.

My mind is officially blown.

Marana tha!

16 posted on 02/15/2005 9:48:24 AM PST by Freakazoid (God is effortless)
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To: sionnsar
clergy expressed fears that they would be victims of a witchhunt

Now, why would that thought pop into their little minds, hmmmm?


17 posted on 02/15/2005 11:21:10 AM PST by siunevada
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To: AnAmericanMother
The rest were a grab-bag of neurotics, feminists, radical lesbians, and ambitious climbers. So far as I could tell, most went into the priesthood to calm their own internal demons, prove a gender or sexual point, or gain status.

I have long maintained that the best practical (as opposed to theological) argument against priestesses is that the sort of women clamouring to be made into priestesses are manifestly unfit for the job. It seems to attract the very worst elements.

18 posted on 02/15/2005 11:39:23 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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Oh Come! Holy Inquisition!

78% / 63% / 53%...that's pretty bad...we're probably in the low to mid 20's ....

In the old days you needed burnings and the like...nowadays all you need is a strong worded statement, laicization, and excommunication...people will back off...Kerry and Kennedy would be on their knees with a Rosary in their hands, wailing in the middle of Boston Common if that bearded hippy Bishop of Boston even uttered even a slight rebuke for supporting baby murder....the laity waits.

19 posted on 02/15/2005 12:28:51 PM PST by Pio (There was no Salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church)
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To: sionnsar
You do not have to be a fundamentalist to admit that it is unlikely that the Holy Spirit supports guiding the Church into denying His existence.

Simple enough for ever Bp. Sprong to understand, although I suspect he might not agree with it.

When people say we have to draw the line somewhere it makes me very worried because we are going to draw a line where many people could be outside.

Yup. He's got it, too. Seems to me that the whole point of inclusivity as I understand it in a Biblical context is that everyone is eligible to believe and be saved. That doesn't mean that everyone will be saved whether they believe or not. Seems pretty plain to me that people who don't believe in the Gospel are to be excluded.

20 posted on 02/15/2005 1:06:13 PM PST by RonF
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