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To: fortheDeclaration
Thus, Calvin's ultimate appeal is not to mercy nor to even power, but to Justice. So once again, why are some elected and some condemned? All are equal, and you say that God in his mercy saved some and not others, what critera did He use if all were seen as the same?

The Justice of God is essential, because His Mercy is meaningless without the backdrop of Justice. Why do you have such a hard time with that? Calvin did not say God's choice of some sinners unto salvation was based on His Justice. Calvin said that God's Justice is righteous and Just, and therefore so are His Judgments. He's not talking about Election, he's talking about Judgment and Divine Justice in this quote.

What is the criteria God uses for selecting some sinners and not selecting others? He doesn't tell us specifically. Therefore, like it or not, it is a mystery unto us, but not to God. If it pleases Him to do so, He may reveal it to us in Glory, but it is not revealed in scripture.

Why do you insist that this criteria must be knowable, or known? Will you not accept salvation otherwise? At various times you have made the charge of arbitrariness, capriciousness, or whim as the basis of God's choice, according to Calvinists, which you know full well is a false statement. God had a reason, of that I have no doubt. But if he chooses not to reveal it, who am I (or you?) to get all huffy about it? Since when is He required to satisfy your curiosity? You certainly don't believe that God has revealed 100% of who He is, how He works, and what His reasons are for doing what He does, do you?

That which is not revealed is by definition a mystery, something which belongs to the secret counsel of the Most High. But the mere mention of such a concept sends you into a Calvinist-bashing tirade. You won't even let God be God! You demand that He reveal whatever you want to know, RIGHT NOW! And when He doesn't, then you say, "aha!! I knew it was mysticism all along. Because of that, it CAN'T be True!"

107 posted on 02/11/2005 4:20:05 PM PST by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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To: nobdysfool; xzins; Corin Stormhands; P-Marlowe
Thus, Calvin's ultimate appeal is not to mercy nor to even power, but to Justice. So once again, why are some elected and some condemned? All are equal, and you say that God in his mercy saved some and not others, what critera did He use if all were seen as the same? The Justice of God is essential, because His Mercy is meaningless without the backdrop of Justice.

My, what a turn around!

So now Justice is essential, before you stated that only God's will was.

Why do you have such a hard time with that? Calvin did not say God's choice of some sinners unto salvation was based on His Justice. Calvin said that God's Justice is righteous and Just, and therefore so are His Judgments. He's not talking about Election, he's talking about Judgment and Divine Justice in this quote.

The basis of his mercy is God's justice, so that the reason anyone is chosen must be a fair one as well as a merciful one.

That is exactly what Calvin states, as well as Boettner.

Thus, selection cannot be based on mere will, but must have justice underlying it.

What is the criteria God uses for selecting some sinners and not selecting others? He doesn't tell us specifically. Therefore, like it or not, it is a mystery unto us, but not to God. If it pleases Him to do so, He may reveal it to us in Glory, but it is not revealed in scripture.

Well, thank you for admitting that the essential issue in Calvinism-election is a mystery.

Why do you insist that this criteria must be knowable, or known? Will you not accept salvation otherwise? At various times you have made the charge of arbitrariness, capriciousness, or whim as the basis of God's choice, according to Calvinists, which you know full well is a false statement. God had a reason, of that I have no doubt. But if he chooses not to reveal it, who am I (or you?) to get all huffy about it? Since when is He required to satisfy your curiosity? You certainly don't believe that God has revealed 100% of who He is, how He works, and what His reasons are for doing what He does, do you? That which is not revealed is by definition a mystery, something which belongs to the secret counsel of the Most High. But the mere mention of such a concept sends you into a Calvinist-bashing tirade. You won't even let God be God! You demand that He reveal whatever you want to know, RIGHT NOW! And when He doesn't, then you say, "aha!! I knew it was mysticism all along. Because of that, it CAN'T be True!"

It can't be true because it contradicts clear scripture.

It can't be true because it's final appeal is not to what we do know about God as he has revealed Himself, but an appeal to ignore what contradicts that very revelation.

Hence, the constant refrain from Calvinists not to ask that question (Rom.9:20),but the Calvinists dogmatic assertion that election as they define is right, even though they cannot prove it, but must appeal to mysticism.

108 posted on 02/12/2005 6:32:06 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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