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To: nobdysfool; xzins; Corin Stormhands; P-Marlowe
Thus, Calvin's ultimate appeal is not to mercy nor to even power, but to Justice. So once again, why are some elected and some condemned? All are equal, and you say that God in his mercy saved some and not others, what critera did He use if all were seen as the same? The Justice of God is essential, because His Mercy is meaningless without the backdrop of Justice.

My, what a turn around!

So now Justice is essential, before you stated that only God's will was.

Why do you have such a hard time with that? Calvin did not say God's choice of some sinners unto salvation was based on His Justice. Calvin said that God's Justice is righteous and Just, and therefore so are His Judgments. He's not talking about Election, he's talking about Judgment and Divine Justice in this quote.

The basis of his mercy is God's justice, so that the reason anyone is chosen must be a fair one as well as a merciful one.

That is exactly what Calvin states, as well as Boettner.

Thus, selection cannot be based on mere will, but must have justice underlying it.

What is the criteria God uses for selecting some sinners and not selecting others? He doesn't tell us specifically. Therefore, like it or not, it is a mystery unto us, but not to God. If it pleases Him to do so, He may reveal it to us in Glory, but it is not revealed in scripture.

Well, thank you for admitting that the essential issue in Calvinism-election is a mystery.

Why do you insist that this criteria must be knowable, or known? Will you not accept salvation otherwise? At various times you have made the charge of arbitrariness, capriciousness, or whim as the basis of God's choice, according to Calvinists, which you know full well is a false statement. God had a reason, of that I have no doubt. But if he chooses not to reveal it, who am I (or you?) to get all huffy about it? Since when is He required to satisfy your curiosity? You certainly don't believe that God has revealed 100% of who He is, how He works, and what His reasons are for doing what He does, do you? That which is not revealed is by definition a mystery, something which belongs to the secret counsel of the Most High. But the mere mention of such a concept sends you into a Calvinist-bashing tirade. You won't even let God be God! You demand that He reveal whatever you want to know, RIGHT NOW! And when He doesn't, then you say, "aha!! I knew it was mysticism all along. Because of that, it CAN'T be True!"

It can't be true because it contradicts clear scripture.

It can't be true because it's final appeal is not to what we do know about God as he has revealed Himself, but an appeal to ignore what contradicts that very revelation.

Hence, the constant refrain from Calvinists not to ask that question (Rom.9:20),but the Calvinists dogmatic assertion that election as they define is right, even though they cannot prove it, but must appeal to mysticism.

108 posted on 02/12/2005 6:32:06 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration
My, what a turn around! So now Justice is essential, before you stated that only God's will was.

No turn-around at all. I have not deviated from what I have been saying. You, however, have been all over the map! The basis of condemnation for sin, and the Judgment of God, is God's Justice, as the expression of His Wrath against sin and all that is not Holy as He is Holy. The basis for Election is NOT Justice, but God's Mercy. Your quote of Calvin is not talking about Election, but about God's Justice.

The basis of his mercy is God's justice, so that the reason anyone is chosen must be a fair one as well as a merciful one. That is exactly what Calvin states, as well as Boettner. Thus, selection cannot be based on mere will, but must have justice underlying it.

How so? If Justice underlies His Mercy and Election, then you are forced to admit that some men are worthy of salvation in and of themselves. You cannot show me one verse of scripture that states such a thing. No man is worthy of salvation, because if they were, then salvation is no more a free gift, but an obligation on the part of God to them.

God's Mercy stands in stark relief to His Justice. Justice demands that man die for sinning. God's Mercy is shown in Christ dying in their place, the Righteous for the unrighteous, in order that those for whom Christ died (The Elect), can be clothed with the Righteousness of Christ, and thereby stand before God, because it pleased God to do so, not because God was under obligation to do so, or in need of doing so.

It can't be true because it contradicts clear scripture. It can't be true because it's final appeal is not to what we do know about God as he has revealed Himself, but an appeal to ignore what contradicts that very revelation

You are so worried about why God chooses any man, that you make up reasons that contradict scripture and logic, and then cast stones at me for being honest enough to say that God has not revealed why He has Mercy on some, and not others. Foreseen faith cannot be the reason, because it contradicts your doctrine of Prevenient Grace. Foreseen faith also cannot be the reason, because it makes God a respecter of persons. But you stubbornly cling to that belief, because you can't accept that God would do something and not tell us the reason for why He does it. You demand answers from God, forgetting that Job did, and God's answer to him, was basically, "When you can do what I do, then you can question Me. Got a problem with that?", and challenged Job to provide some answers of his own, which were far above his ability to answer, putting Job in his place, and humbling him.

I do not appeal to "mysticism" as you charge. That is a made-up, derogatory, false charge that you use to try to put Calvinists on the defensive, and deflect away from the fact that you CAN'T answer the clear scripture and reasoning Calvinists base their doctrine on. You quote Calvin and others out of context when it suits you, although you don't believe a word Calvin wrote. You demand that all Calvinists must believe and agree with every word that Calvin wrote, or you say we think we're better than Calvin, another false charge. The fact of the matter is that you cannot stand before Calvinism and the Bible, so you twist and turn and try to deflect in order to hide the paucity of your own beliefs.

Hence, the constant refrain from Calvinists not to ask that question (Rom.9:20),but the Calvinists dogmatic assertion that election as they define is right, even though they cannot prove it, but must appeal to mysticism.

We have proved it, over and over again. You just don't want to accept the answer. I think it's hilarious that you constantly trot out Rom 9:20, and try to shoot darts at it, when we haven't appealed to that scripture in this discussion. You must have a real problem with that verse, because you constantly keep bringing it up, and shooting at it. Another deflection tactic on your part. You have been caught in some serious logical faux pas, and your doctrine is unraveling. Keep it up. It's entertaining....

109 posted on 02/12/2005 7:07:44 AM PST by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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