[fortheDeclaration]

Nice little speech but I read it before in Calvin's Institutes. Too bad you didn't understand what you read. Now, since all men are equal before God in sin, maybe you can tell me how the Just God decided on choosing some and not others? His choosing is not a matter of His Justice, but of His Mercy. Your appeal to God's Justice is a straw man, because God's Mercy is what is at work in Election to Salvation. His Justice was borne by Christ, for those whom He chose before the foundation of the world. What you want to do is to say that God's Mercy is unfair, because it is not equally given. The decision to show Mercy is god's alone, the same as the governor's decision to pardon a death-row inmate, or to commute his sentence to life in prison. it's not a matter of "fair" it's a matter of mercy. Your insistence that Election is according to Foreseen faith makes God a debtor to man, because the logical question implicit in your doctrine is "how could God not save those He foresees having faith in Him?" Not to mention the absolutely contradictory nature of election according to foreseen faith and believing that no man can turn to Christ without prevenient grace. And you'll never answer the question of what is it in one man that makes him choose Christ, while the man standing next to him does not? Since you deny that is God's monergistic action toward the man, then it must be something within him that makes him smarter, better, wiser than his Christ-rejecting neighbor. But if that is so, then that man is not quite as depraved, not quite as sinful, not quite as dead in sins as the other man. So in reality, you argue against the depravity of man, and for a Pelagian view of man as being able to obey God's Commands by native ability, because you don't believe God would command of man anything that man cannot do. No answer? That's alright, no Calvinist has an answer, all they have is appeals to God's secret counsel and Rom.9:20 wrenched out of context. I gave you an answer. And it will be noted that I did not appeal to Romans 9:20 at any point in my answer.

No, you just gave me the wrong answer.

Calvin does appeal to the justice of God as does Boettner.

I think you need to go reread you Calvin and stop wasting your time with light-weights like Sproul.

For what more seems to be said here than just that the power of God is such as cannot be hindered, so that he can do whatsoever he pleases? But it is far otherwise. For what stronger reason can be given than when we are ordered to reflect who God is? How could he who is the Judge of the world commit any unrighteousness? If it properly belongs to the nature of God to do judgment, he must naturally love justice and abhor injustice. Wherefore, the Apostle did not, as if he had been caught in a difficulty, have recourse to evasion; he only intimated that the procedure of divine justice is too high to be scanned by human measure, or comprehended by the feebleness of human intellect.

Thus, Calvin's ultimate appeal is not to mercy nor to even power, but to Justice.

So once again, why are some elected and some condemned?

All are equal, and you say that God in his mercy saved some and not others, what critera did He use if all were seen as the same?

[nobdysfool]

Thus, Calvin's ultimate appeal is not to mercy nor to even power, but to Justice. So once again, why are some elected and some condemned? All are equal, and you say that God in his mercy saved some and not others, what critera did He use if all were seen as the same?

The Justice of God is essential, because His Mercy is meaningless without the backdrop of Justice. Why do you have such a hard time with that? Calvin did not say God's choice of some sinners unto salvation was based on His Justice. Calvin said that God's Justice is righteous and Just, and therefore so are His Judgments. He's not talking about Election, he's talking about Judgment and Divine Justice in this quote.

What is the criteria God uses for selecting some sinners and not selecting others? He doesn't tell us specifically. Therefore, like it or not, it is a mystery unto us, but not to God. If it pleases Him to do so, He may reveal it to us in Glory, but it is not revealed in scripture.

Why do you insist that this criteria must be knowable, or known? Will you not accept salvation otherwise? At various times you have made the charge of arbitrariness, capriciousness, or whim as the basis of God's choice, according to Calvinists, which you know full well is a false statement. God had a reason, of that I have no doubt. But if he chooses not to reveal it, who am I (or you?) to get all huffy about it? Since when is He required to satisfy your curiosity? You certainly don't believe that God has revealed 100% of who He is, how He works, and what His reasons are for doing what He does, do you?

That which is not revealed is by definition a mystery, something which belongs to the secret counsel of the Most High. But the mere mention of such a concept sends you into a Calvinist-bashing tirade. You won't even let God be God! You demand that He reveal whatever you want to know, RIGHT NOW! And when He doesn't, then you say, "aha!! I knew it was mysticism all along. Because of that, it CAN'T be True!"