Posted on 01/07/2005 7:47:31 PM PST by DouglasKC
I agree. However, our focus should be on those old commandments. We are a new creation, under a new covenant, with new commandments. John 13:34, 1 Cor 7:10 (which differs from the OT), 1 Thess 4:1-8, 1 JOhn 3:23, etc.
America has many laws which have their foundation in English law, but we are no longer under English law. In the same manner, New Testament commandments have their foundation in OT commandsm, but we are no longer under OT law.
Since it appears to me that you are one of the very few Bible followers that I know, I have a couple of questions relating to the feasts that you may know something about or possibly may direct me to the right source.
This is not, in my opinion, a salvation issue, but since your article mentions the feast days, it reminded me of something I’ve been trying to figure out for a long time. We know Y’hshua died on 14 Nisan. The next day (beginning at sundown) was the feast of Unleavened Bread, and the following day (16th) was the Feast of First Fruits. My question is how did he specifically “fulfill” this? Let me clarify a bit more. Y’hshua said in Matthew he’de be buried 3 days and 3 nights. Some say that a day is not a 24 hr. period, but could represent a part of that 24 hours, others say a day refers only to hours of daylight, and on and on. Others say that the sabbath referred to in reference to his death and resurrection was the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Some claim that the words “first day of the week” is not really what the Greek or the original Latin Vulgate says. I looked those verses up in those languages (not that I know them), but I can see the similarities of what appears as the word “sabbath” in both languages instead of “first day” as translated in English. What do you make out of all this?
May YHWH Bless you in you search for TRUTH
Even if there were no other references the fact that Jesus kept them should be sufficient for Christians....but nonetheless here is other scripture that proves conclusively that Christians observed God's holy days:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.
Here we have a specific command from Paul to Christians in Corinith to observe the days of unleavened bread. In actuality the purpose of God including this in scripture isn't because they weren't already observing the holy day, it was to show Christians the spiritual intent.
Act 20:6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.
Another reference to the days of unleavened bread. Note that this occurred over 20 years after the death of Christ. Note also that Acts was written by a gentile 40 or 50 years after the death of Christ and God inspired him to include this reference.
Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
The new testament church began on a holy day, Pentecost.
Act 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.
Paul wanted to be at Jerusalem for Pentecost 20 years later.
Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Probably the feast of tabernacles. Paul tells his fellow Christians that he wants to be in Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Act 27:9 Now when much time was spent, and when sailing was now dangerous, because the fast was now already past, Paul admonished [them],
Most scholars agree that this is a reference to the day of atonement. What's significant about it is that a gentile, Luke, writing this book under the inspiration of the holy spirit, casually includes a reference to a holy day to mark time 40 or 50 years after the death of Christ.
Excellent post
Is belief in the Trinity necessary ?
Scripture makes it pretty clear that circumcision is not a requirement of salvation for gentiles.
On diet, I believe that some animals are not meant to be eaten by men...are not compatible with our physiology. These animals are spelled out in Leviticus 11. But they were known long before that, since at least the time of Noah and probably right after creation. For example:
Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.
So there was such a thing as clean and unclean animals in Noahs' time...it's not confined to any covenant.
The jewish religion added regulations and restrictions to these basic laws to a ridiculous extreme. The new testament spends some time undoing these ceremonial additions.
I disagree. The 10 commandments are the objective benchmark, our school master, our tutor, the laws that tell us how we're doing in our spiritual growth. The two greatest commandments by Christ:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
The first four commandments define love of God, the last 6 love of fellow man.
I do believe that you're correct in that physically trying to keep these commandments without spiritually living them isn't profitable. In that case we're just like the Pharisees, supposdely clean and righteous on the outside, but inwardly full of rot.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
No they are feasts that God gave TO THE JEWS as a sign, Gentiles were NEVER ordered or never was it suggested that they are are to celebrate them .
Lev 23:4 These [are] the feasts of the LORD, [even] holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Doug this was written to the jews..
And since God tells us they're his feasts, and Christ kept them as an example, then there's no doubt that the first Christians honored God by observing his feasts.
Christ kept them BECAUSE HE WAS A JEW. Jesus was without sin, failing to observe the laws would have been sin. I will remind you that the Gospels were written under the Old Testament. The NEW Testament does not begin until the death of Christ.
What did he say at the last supper to the men that would build his church?
Did he say "celebrate every Passover?" or did he say 'DO this in remembrance of me'? He mover the celebration of Passover AWAY from the original Jewish holiday and instead celebrated the "Lords table" ..a command of the New Testament
When the question was asked about whether or not the Gentiles would be placed under the law they held a council . The Jerusalem Council was called specifically to resolve putting the converts under the law. The new church was at first seen as a sect of Judaism so the question was, were the gentiles now Jews and under Jewish law .The matter is discussed in Acts 15. Here is their authoritative decree concerning what Gentile converts to Christianity were obligated to do:
23 They sent this letter with them: From the apostles and elders, your brothers, to the Gentile brothers and sisters in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia, greetings!
24 Since we have heard that some have gone out from among us with no orders from us and have confused you, upsetting your minds by what they said,
25 we have unanimously decided to choose men to send to you along with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul,
26 who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas who will tell you these things themselves in person.
28 For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit and to us not to place any greater burden on you than these necessary rules:
29 that you abstain from meat that has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what has been strangled and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from doing these things, you will do well. Farewell.
Galatians is very clear on this matter Doug. Paul explains because of God's grace, Gentiles who came to salvation were not required to keep the feasts. They were expected to give up idolatry and obey the seven Noahide laws PERIOD .In Philippians chapter 3 Paul warns the saints in Philippi about Jewish legalizers. In 1 Timothy chapter 1 Paul warns Timothy and the Ephesian saints about those would-be teachers of the law, who were most surely Jews (1:3-11). In 1 Timothy 4 Paul warns about the "doctrines of demons," which involves the prohibition against eating certain foods (4:3). In Titus 1:14 Paul warns about "Jewish myths." I think one must say that the Judaisers are still with us today, and we must beware of falling into their error.
There is nothing here at all requiring Gentile believers to observe Jewish feasts. If this were a requirement, this would have been the place to say so.
Your church places you under Jewish legalism , makes salvation a work of the flesh and not one of grace and mercy .
I have family in this group and I pray from them to come out.
Some branches have separated themselves and are moving in the direction of Christianity .
Sometimes having the back round like your link allow for good evaluation of the article from another perspective
Thanks
Does not God, in the bible, call these HIS feasts Terry? Since they ARE God's feasts, then why would you possibly object to anyone who honors God by observing his feasts?
Christ kept them BECAUSE HE WAS A JEW. Jesus was without sin, failing to observe the laws would have been sin.
Christ kept them because he is God. They are God's feasts therefore Christ kept HIS own feasts, the feasts he created:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
There is nothing here at all requiring Gentile believers to observe Jewish feasts. If this were a requirement, this would have been the place to say so.
Three points here terry:
1. There is no record that Paul ever taught that the feasts of our Lord, Jesus Christ, were ever done away with. If he had we would see a controvery as great as the controvery they had over circumcision.
2. I've cited passages in another post that specifically show that early Christians observed the feast days of Christ.
3. There is absolutely no injunction saying that Christians can not and should not observe the holy days that Jesus Christ created.
Those commands were the greatest given at that time. If those OT commands were sufficient, Jesus wouldn't have given us a New Commandment in John 13:34. But He did. It's interesting that in 1 John 3:23, we read,
"And THIS is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave £us commandment.
This commandment swallows and replaces the previous "great" commandment.
James 2
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Romans 2
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
2 John 1
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
Luke 16
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Mark 10
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
1Jo
2:4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo
2:5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Remember this!! You will be judged by YHWH’s Royal 10 commandment law. Not man-made law or doctrine. Not my words, but YHWH’s WORDS and teachings from HIS Most Holy Word.
May YHWH Bless You in your search for the TRUTH.
God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we [Jews] are saved, just as they [Gentiles] are.”
The whole point of Christianity was to recognize the fault that through the Law one does not become just in God's eyes. One does not "earn" salvation by "being good." We cannot buy our way into heaven. It is God's mercy and nothing that we could possibly accomplish on our own that saves us. Because even when we have not sinned as infants, we were not innocent.
I actually think that commandment falls within the two greatest commandments I mentioned previously. And by the way, Jesus said that the two I listed (love God with all your mind, etc and love others as yourself were the greatest....period.:
Mar 12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Every Christian knows this. Every Christian knows that salvation can't be earned. But every Christian SHOULD know that freedom in Christ doesn't mean the freedom to transgress God's law...the freedom to sin. The 10 commandments are God's written definition of the law of love. Christians will obey God's commandments not because they think it will earn them salvation or favor in God's eyes, but because they have a heart of obedience and love God and his commandments.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Let me ask you a question...is it okay with God if a Christian willfully and purposely commits adultery in an unrepentant fashion in deed and spirit? Of course it's not. Such a person probably isn't saved at all. Now why wouldn't a Christian do such a thing? It's exactly because as Christians we have God's laws written in our hearts and minds. That IS the promise of the new covenant:
Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hbr 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Note how Paul compares the tablets of stone (the ten commandments) with the tablet of our hearts:
2Cr 3:3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
Doug, Israel was given to the Jews should Germans move in and claim it too?
God ordained a plan that the saviour of men would come to the world through the seed of Abraham. He led and protected and disciplined and gave prophecy and signs to them about this special privilege. God is God of all things, but he did not ordain to send Jesus as a Roman.
Those Holidays were remembrances of Gods work in THE NATION OF ISRAEL, signs that he loved them and he had elected them as His people.
Read that Doug, you are not a Jew, that is not your history, Those holidays even today are a remembrance to them
You just show what low esteem you have for the work of Christ, HIS work was for men of all races and nations. That is the thing that we have to celebrate. That He had sheep from other flocks . The Jew 1st and then all mankind. You demean the gift of Christ as Saviour by needing to add to it the legalism of the Pharisees
Christ kept them BECAUSE HE WAS A JEW. Jesus was without sin, failing to observe the laws would have been sin.
Christ kept them because he is God. They are God's feasts therefore Christ kept HIS own feasts, the feasts he created:
Did Luke keep the Jewish feasts? What of Stephen the man chose as the first martyr?
Is there ANY RECORD that they were told or taught to observe the Jewish law.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Ane He has absolute right to do as he wills with what he creates.
"One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observed the day, to the Lord he does not observe it." (Romans 14:5-6a).
"So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ . . . Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations -- Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle, which all concern things which perish with the using -- according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh." (Col. 2:16, 20-22)
Doug, Jesus was a Jew, He was "under " Jewish law as a man . As sinless and perfect He kept the law as it was given by His Father.
That was the OT time and the OT laws . He himself heralded the beginning of the NT by celebrating the feast of Passover and changing its meaning. READ it Doug
1. There is no record that Paul ever taught that the feasts of our Lord, Jesus Christ, were ever done away with. If he had we would see a controvery as great as the controvery they had over circumcision. 2. I've cited passages in another post that specifically show that early Christians observed the feast days of Christ. 3. There is absolutely no injunction saying that Christians can not and should not observe the holy days that Jesus Christ created.
Those Holidays were given to the Jews, remain a sign to the Jews. I did not say they were " done away with" .
Point 2
The "Christians" that observed them were the JEWISH Christians , not the Roman or greek Christians.
Read the words of Paul again
"So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ .
Point 3
I did not say there was an injunction , that Christian may not celebrate them. We have Christian liberty we are free to do that , but it is no spiritual benefit. It is not a command, it is not even suggested in scripture. It (law keeping) adds not one thing to our standing before God. Christ is the righteousness of the Saved believer. We have and can earn no righteousness on our own
Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
At that time, that was true. And Jesus was talking to those under the law. But later, He gave a new commandment. Why, because the earlier two didn't cut it. They didn't result in salvation.
Clearly, Apostles and early Christians rejected from the very beginning (and they were all observant Jews at that time), as evidenced in Acts 5, the notion that Gentiles are subject to the Law just as we do not consider European citizens subject to American laws but hold them to moral laws, which apply universally.
The error of Judaism is that it has monopolized God to the point that it is felt that the only way to know God is to become an observant Jew. In that, Judaism fails the Old Testament, which clearly states that "in thee all nations will be blessed." It was through the New Testament, as interpreted in Acts 5 by Saint Peter, that the God of Abraham is made known to all the nations to worship.
It is through the NT that the OT is correctly delivered.
First of all they are not holidays. They are HOLY days. They are holy because they are imbued with the presence of the Lord.
Secondly, these holy days were not "given" to anyone. These days, as I keep stating, are God's Holy days:
Lev 23:4 These [are] the feasts of the LORD, [even] holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
You can talk around this fact, try to rationalize it away, or ignore it...but it won't go away because it's the truth...scripture can't be broken.
You just show what low esteem you have for the work of Christ, HIS work was for men of all races and nations. That is the thing that we have to celebrate. That He had sheep from other flocks . The Jew 1st and then all mankind. You demean the gift of Christ as Saviour by needing to add to it the legalism of the Pharisees
On the contrary, God's holy days are for the benefit of all mankind. In the future, when Christ returns, all nations will celebrate the holy days that Christ created. The evidence of this is in the prophechies of Zechariah - :
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zec 14:17 And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
When Christ returns I pray that you are still not hard hearted about this issue and will keep his feast days Terry. Why wait until then though? Why not now?
Did Luke keep the Jewish feasts? What of Stephen the man chose as the first martyr?
Of course they did. These days were part of the culture and life of their society at the time...just like holidays in the United States are to most people today.
"One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observed the day, to the Lord he does not observe it." (Romans 14:5-6a).
The problem with using this verse in support of NOT observing Christ's holy days is that it doesn't mention the holy days. The NT when referring to God's Holy days uses the word:
heorte
Of uncertain affinity; a festival: - feast, holyday.
This word, or variations, occurs close to 30 times in the new testament and always refers to God's holy days.
In contrast, "day" in "observes the day" in Romans 14 is the word:
hemera
Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ημαι hemai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years
Hemera is used 387 times in the NT but is never used to refer specifically to a holy day. I urge you to research this usage on your own.
Those Holidays were given to the Jews, remain a sign to the Jews. I did not say they were " done away with" .
Holy days Terry, holy days. If they were not done away with then they are still holy. Your creator and mine still have feast days that they made holy.
The "Christians" that observed them were the JEWISH Christians , not the Roman or greek Christians.
I think the burden of proof is on you for this. Paul specifically tells "jewish" christians and gentile christians alike to celebrate at least one holy day:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast (heortazo), not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.
"So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ .
That does not mean what you think it means. Explain this: Paul wrote this, by most scholars estimates, over 20 years after the death of Christ. Yet Paul says that the feast days ARE...not WERE...ARE a shadow of things to come. ARE a shadow. Why does Paul believe, 20 years after the death of Christ, that the feast days ARE a shadow of things yet future, things yet to come? The answer of course is that they are. Christ will return...the fall feasts picture the return of Christ and the millenial kingdom.
did not say there was an injunction , that Christian may not celebrate them. We have Christian liberty we are free to do that , but it is no spiritual benefit.
On the contrary I've found that observing God's feast days have great spiritual benefits. That's why God made them. God does nothing in vain.
You should study on this topic some more. Try reading God's Holy Day Plan . I know that you've already rejected the celebration of Christmas as being a non-Christian tradition. This is the same. Man by his tradiiton has usurped the wisdom of God and made God's holy days irrelevent to most Christians. That's shameful.
I didn't mean to ignore your post on this. I've sat down and started writing a response many times, but it's a huge subject.
I believe that "first day of the week" when referring to the resurrection of Christ is more properly rendered "the first of the sabbaths".
The wave sheaf offering in the OT represented the ascension of Christ:
Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
The "first of the sabbaths" is the beginning of the count of sabbaths until the feast of Pentecost (also called the feast of weeks):
Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
The wave sheaf would always occur on what we call Sunday, the day Christ ascended to the father.
Here are some good resources for your study.
Good luck and God bless.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.