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Archbishop of Canterbury admits: This makes me doubt the existence of God
Telegraph ^ | 04 January 2005 | Chris Hastings, Patrick Hennessy and Sean Rayment

Posted on 01/04/2005 6:06:26 AM PST by Catholic54321

The Asian tsunami disaster should make all Christians question the existence of God, Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, writes in The Telegraph today.

In a deeply personal and candid article, he says "it would be wrong" if faith were not "upset" by the catastrophe which has already claimed more than 150,000 lives.

Dr Rowan Williams: Prayer provides no 'magical solutions' Prayer, he admits, provides no "magical solutions" and most of the stock Christian answers to human suffering do not "go very far in helping us, one week on, with the intolerable grief and devastation in front of us".

Dr Williams, who, as head of the Church of England, represents 70 million Anglicans around the world, writes: "Every single random, accidental death is something that should upset a faith bound up in comfort and ready answers. Faced with the paralysing magnitude of a disaster like this, we naturally feel more deeply outraged - and also more deeply helpless."

He adds: "The question, 'How can you believe in a God who permits suffering on this scale?' is therefore very much around at the moment, and it would be surprising if it weren't - indeed it would be wrong if it weren't."

Dr Williams concludes that, faced with such a terrible challenge to their faith, Christians must focus on "passionate engagement with the lives that are left".

His comments came as Tony Blair finally broke his silence on the tragedy, branding it a "global catastrophe" that would take the world "years" to deal with. The Prime Minister, who has faced criticism for not cutting short a family holiday in the Egyptian resort of Sharm El Sheikh, also insisted that the United Nations should lead the international aid effort. He praised the "extraordinary generosity" of the British people, whose donations topped £60 million last night. The Government has thus far pledged £50 million.

Interviewed by Channel 4 News, Mr Blair said: "At first it seemed a terrible disaster. But I think as the days have gone on people have recognised it as a global catastrophe.

"It is not simply the absolute horror of what has happened and how many people's lives have been touched in different ways, it is also the fact that the consequences are not just short-term and immediate but long-term and will require a great deal of work by the international community for months, if not years, to come.

"We've got millions of people displaced, we've got the potential of disease coming from this and we've got whole areas of that region that will have to be rebuilt."

He shrugged off claims that he should have come home to take charge of Britain's aid effort, adding that he had been in touch "practically hourly" with Downing Street.

Mr Blair said that one of his key tasks during Britain's year-long presidency of the G8 group of leading industrial nations, which started yesterday, was to liaise with other leaders. His faith in the UN seemed undimmed despite the international rows in the months prior to the war in Iraq and he dismissed as a "misunderstanding" claims that President George W. Bush had tried to snub the organisation by setting up a four-country task force with Australia, India and Japan.

"When I spoke to President Bush a short time ago he made it very clear that he wanted the UN to be in the lead and that he sees the work that the US is doing as very much supportive of that," he said.

Mr Blair's intervention was made as it was disclosed that Gordon Brown, the Chancellor, would lead Britain's international anti-poverty drive by going on a three-nation trip to east and southern Africa later this month.

Meanwhile, a 10-man British military reconnaissance team arrived in Sri Lanka to assess how British Armed Forces could best assist the stricken country which, with Thailand, Indonesia and southern India, has borne the brunt of the disaster.

The team will report back to the Permanent Joint Headquarters in Northwood, Middlesex, in the next 72 hours. The main focus of Britain's effort is likely to be directed towards Sri Lanka and the Maldives.

Two Royal Navy ships, the frigate Chatham, currently on patrol in the Gulf, and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessel Diligence, already in the Indian Ocean, are heading for Sri Lanka. A C-17 Globe Master transport aircraft, which can carry 100,000lbs of cargo, has also been allocated to supply aid.

The Pope in his New Year message yesterday led prayers for victims at St Peter's Basilica in Rome, and a prayer vigil for victims, survivors and families was being held at Central Hall, Westminster, last night.

On Wednesday, a nationwide three-minute silence will be observed across Britain.


TOPICS: Catholic; Mainline Protestant
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1 posted on 01/04/2005 6:06:26 AM PST by Catholic54321
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To: Catholic54321

Oh boy, this aughta be a good-un.


2 posted on 01/04/2005 6:10:26 AM PST by evad (DUmmie FUnnies and Pookie Toons-the start of a nice day)
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To: Catholic54321; Puritan Idelette; suzyjaruki; Wrigley; AZhardliner; Alex Murphy; Frumanchu; ...
The Asian tsunami disaster should make all Christians question the existence of God, Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, writes in The Telegraph today.

In a deeply personal and candid article, he says "it would be wrong" if faith were not "upset" by the catastrophe which has already claimed more than 150,000 lives.

Excuse me, but I just don't see why. I see it as validation of our own fallen state and how creation groans under our nature.

3 posted on 01/04/2005 6:13:55 AM PST by Gamecock (Exurge, Calvinisti, et judica causam tuam)
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To: Catholic54321
Dr Williams, who, as head of the Church of England, represents 70 million Anglicans around the world, writes: "Every single random, accidental death is something that should upset a faith bound up in comfort and ready answers. Faced with the paralysing magnitude of a disaster like this, we naturally feel more deeply outraged - and also more deeply helpless."

First of all, no death is random or accidental.

Second, Dr Rowan needs to read Job again, as well as several other passages.

4 posted on 01/04/2005 6:14:47 AM PST by Frumanchu (I fear the sanctions of the Mediator far above the sanctions of the moderator...)
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To: Catholic54321
A "church" that questions the very existence of God is no church.
5 posted on 01/04/2005 6:20:17 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Catholic54321

Me thinks the man should not be in his position.


6 posted on 01/04/2005 6:22:38 AM PST by mware
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To: Catholic54321

Maybe the Anglican Church should not be choosing Druids to serve as the Bishop of Canterbury?


7 posted on 01/04/2005 6:44:10 AM PST by JFK_Lib
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To: Gamecock
Perhaps a more candid admission on his part would have been, "Though it fits the Biblical picture of God and the world like a hand in a glove, this challenges the faith that I fabricated myself by mixing traditional encrustations and personal prejudices, predilections, and wild guesses."

Dan
Biblical Christianity web site
Biblical Christianity message board
Biblical Christianity BLOG

8 posted on 01/04/2005 6:51:20 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Gamecock

With Dr. Rowan Williams liberal stance on homosexuals would we/should we expect anything other type of comment from him? That being said it annoys me to see people living their lives anyway they wish denying the existance of God and as soon as a disaster happens they question why God would allow such a thing.

If one is a believer in God we know we are only passing through this life to the next. That being said death is part of the process of going to God-and God is in full control of when and how that will happen. All the hairs on our head are numbered and when it is our time that's it. We are not those who have no hope.


9 posted on 01/04/2005 7:00:37 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: Catholic54321; drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; ...
Here's the article Williams wrote. Note at the end he implores us to pray, though he doesn't seem to really know why we should pray.

Of course this makes us doubt God's existence
By Rowan Williams

The photographs that stay with us, haunt us, are always those of particular faces: one mother's grief, one child's nightmare bewilderment and loneliness. Last week, we learned in Canterbury of the death in the Asian disaster of a 14 -year old from the King's School, with her mother and grandmother. And because of that, people here experienced what had happened in a different way. The number of deaths horrifies us – but what most painfully reaches our feelings is the individual face of loss and terror.

In 1966, when the Aberfan disaster struck, I was a sixth former beginning to think about studying theology at university. I remember watching a television discussion about God and suffering that weekend – with disbelief and astonishment at the vacuous words pouring out about the nature of God's power or control, or about the consolations of belief in an afterlife or whatever.

The only words that made any sense came from the then Archbishop of Wales, in a broadcast on Welsh television. What he said was roughly this: "I can only dare to speak about this because I once lost a child. I have nothing to say that will make sense of this horror today. All I know is that the words in my Bible about God's promise to be alongside us have never lost their meaning for me. And now we have to work in God's name for the future."

He was speaking from the experience of losing one child; but he was able to speak about a much greater tragedy simply because of that, not because of having a better explanatory theory. "Making sense" of a great disaster will always be a challenge simply because those who are closest to the cost are the ones least likely to accept some sort of intellectual explanation, however polished. Why should they?

Every single random, accidental death is something that should upset a faith bound up with comfort and ready answers. Faced with the paralysing magnitude of a disaster like this, we naturally feel more deeply outraged – and also more deeply helpless. We can't see how this is going to be dealt with, we can't see how to make it better. We know, with a rather sick feeling, that we shall have to go on facing it and we can't make it go away or make ourselves feel good.

The question: "How can you believe in a God who permits suffering on this scale?" is therefore very much around at the moment, and it would be surprising if it weren't – indeed, it would be wrong if it weren't. The traditional answers will get us only so far. God, we are told, is not a puppet-master in regard either to human actions or to the processes of the world. If we are to exist in an environment where we can live lives of productive work and consistent understanding – human lives as we know them – the world has to have a regular order and pattern of its own. Effects follow causes in a way that we can chart, and so can make some attempt at coping with. So there is something odd about expecting that God will constantly step in if things are getting dangerous. How dangerous do they have to be? How many deaths would be acceptable?

So why do religious believers pray for God's help or healing? They ask for God's action to come in to a situation and change it, yes; but if they are honest, they don't see prayer as a plea for magical solutions that will make the world totally safe for them and others.

All this is fair enough, perhaps true as far as it goes. But it doesn't go very far in helping us, one week on, with the intolerable grief and devastation in front of us. If some religious genius did come up with an explanation of exactly why all these deaths made sense, would we feel happier or safer or more confident in God? Wouldn't we feel something of a chill at the prospect of a God who deliberately plans a programme that involves a certain level of casualties?

The extraordinary fact is that belief has survived such tests again and again – not because it comforts or explains but because believers cannot deny what has been shown or given to them. They have learned to see the world and life in the world as a freely given gift; they have learned to be open to a calling or invitation from outside their own resources, a calling to accept God's mercy for themselves and make it real for others; they have learned that there is some reality to which they can only relate in amazement and silence. These convictions are terribly assaulted by all those other facts of human experience that seem to point to a completely arbitrary world, but people still feel bound to them, not for comfort or ease, but because they have imposed themselves on the shape of a life and the habits of a heart.

Most importantly in this connection, religious people have learned to look at other human faces with something of the amazement and silence that God himself draws out of them. They see the immeasurable value, the preciousness, of each life. And here is one of the paradoxes. The very thing that lies closest to the heart of a religious way of life in the world, the passion about the value of each and every life, the passion that makes religious people so obstinate and inconvenient when society discusses abortion and euthanasia – this is also just what makes human disaster so appalling, so much of a challenge to the feelings. Sometimes a secular moralist may say in contemporary debates: "Nature is wasteful of life; we can't hold to absolute views of the value of every human organism." That is not an option for the believer. That is why for the believer the uniqueness of every sufferer in a disaster such as the present one is so especially harrowing. There are no "spare" lives.

That is also why the reaction of faith is or should be always one of passionate engagement with the lives that are left, a response that asks not for understanding but for ways of changing the situation in whatever – perhaps very small – ways that are open to us. The odd thing is that those who are most deeply involved – both as sufferers and as helpers – are so often the ones who spend least energy in raging over the lack of explanation. They are likely to shrug off, awkwardly and not very articulately, the great philosophical or religious questions we might want to press. Somehow, they are most aware of two things: a kind of strength and vision just to go on; and a sense of the imperative for practical service and love. Somehow in all of this, God simply emerges for them as a faithful presence. Arguments "for and against" have to be put in the context of that awkward, stubborn persistence.

What can be said with authority about these terrible matters can finally be said only by those closest to the cost. The rest of us need to listen; and then to work and – as best we can manage it – pray.

10 posted on 01/04/2005 7:12:48 AM PST by sheltonmac ("Duty is ours; consequences are God's." -Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson)
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To: sheltonmac

I hope everyone reading the above post understands that this is Archbishop Rowan Williams writing, not me! ;-)


11 posted on 01/04/2005 7:15:27 AM PST by sheltonmac ("Duty is ours; consequences are God's." -Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson)
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To: Catholic54321

I recently read a wonderful observation, that I wish were mine.

Notice only the triune God of Christianity is blamed or questioned when there is tragedy. No one blames the Muslim god allah, or Buddha, or any of the numerous other gods of this world.

That is because only the God of Christianity is a God of love. They do not expect love or mercy from the others .


12 posted on 01/04/2005 7:18:33 AM PST by RnMomof7 (because I'm good enough , and smart enough and darn it I deserve it ")
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To: RnMomof7
Nor does anyone in this country curse Buddha, Allah or any other deity when they slam their thumb with a hammer.
13 posted on 01/04/2005 7:22:02 AM PST by Gamecock (Exurge, Calvinisti, et judica causam tuam)
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To: mware

Someone the other day remarked on the irony that disasters which used to be seen as the wrath of God are now seen as proof of the absence of God.


14 posted on 01/04/2005 7:23:53 AM PST by TFine80
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To: RnMomof7
That is because only the God of Christianity is a God of love. They do not expect love or mercy from the others.

Moreover, He is viewed as the God only of love, and they expect only love or mercy from Him.

15 posted on 01/04/2005 7:24:23 AM PST by Frumanchu (I fear the sanctions of the Mediator far above the sanctions of the moderator...)
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To: Catholic54321
Human beings are much more of a threat to one another than natural disasters are. People deliberately kill other human beings in far greater numbers than this tidal wave did.

Cordially,

16 posted on 01/04/2005 7:26:51 AM PST by Diamond
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To: Diamond
Human beings are much more of a threat to one another than natural disasters are. People deliberately kill other human beings in far greater numbers than this tidal wave did.

What ultimately must be faced, and what Dr Rowan apparently has trouble accepting, is that God has the sovereign ability to deliver men from either...and yet sometimes chooses not to.

17 posted on 01/04/2005 7:34:14 AM PST by Frumanchu (I fear the sanctions of the Mediator far above the sanctions of the moderator...)
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To: Frumanchu; RnMomof7; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; P-Marlowe
Moreover, He is viewed as the God only of love, and they expect only love or mercy from Him.

Certainly for Christians there's truth in that Fru. But I think for the rest of the world it goes beyond that.

While it's not articulated, I think there's an underlying knowledged that those who believe in other "deities" know their guys don't have this much power or this much control over the forces of nature.

18 posted on 01/04/2005 7:38:46 AM PST by Corin Stormhands
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To: RnMomof7
RE:I recently read a wonderful observation, that I wish were mine.

Notice only the triune God of Christianity is blamed or questioned when there is tragedy. No one blames the Muslim god allah, or Buddha, or any of the numerous other gods of this world.

Really? Look here...

"In conclusion then, the earthquake of South Asia is a warning from Allaah (swt), not only to the people of that region, but rather to the whole of humanity, and to the Muslims in particular, that they may return back to their Lord and their Deen. Many of the Muslims today have gathered many sins, some of those sins are so great (kabaa'ir), that it has taken them outside the fold of Islam, while others are on the verge of the Kufr. We see those who delay and neglect prayers, eat haram foods e.g. food that is stunned before being slaughtered, deal with riba (interest), do not fulfill their trusts (covenants), order the evil (munkar) and forbid the good (ma'roof), rule by Kufr laws, uphold and make excuses for the apostate rulers and their governments in the Muslim lands, associate partners with Allaah in his names, attributes and functions, indulge in free mixing, display their awrah, listen to music and songs, smoke and have abandoned the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. All these exist in our society.

Let us fear Allaah (swt) and take warning from the events of this week. Allaah (swt) gives us a chance but is not neglectful. What has happened to the previous nations and some of the current ones will happen to us (one by one) if we obey the Shaytan and go far from the path of the Most Merciful. These are the sunan of Allaah that will never change.

"Or do you feel secure that He, Who is over the Heaven, will not cause the earth to sink with you, then behold it shakes (as in an earthquake)? Or do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven, will not send against you a violent whirlwind? Then you shall know how (terrible) was My Warning." [EMQ 67:16-17]

Let us pause and ask ourselves what has been the tangible impact on us since we have heard and seen this earthquake. The happy one is one who learns from the calamity of others, and the sad one is by whom these calamities pass while he takes no lesson from them. It is unfortunate that the explanation offered for these events is that they are normal natural disasters, and that they do not link it to what happens to people due to their wrongdoing, both as a nation (collectively) and as individuals. Theirs is clearly an incorrect interpretation.

"And We sent not the signs except to warn, and to make them afraid (of destruction)." [EMQ 17:59]"

Source...the MUSLIM... "Jihad Unspun" website "http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=101163&list=/home.php

19 posted on 01/04/2005 7:48:09 AM PST by 1 spark (Check out my links)
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To: Catholic54321
Is Anglican still considered a real religion or just a philosophy, like anal buggery?
20 posted on 01/04/2005 7:51:04 AM PST by Porterville (Never compromise what is right. Take your time to insult a liberal or have one unemployed.)
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