In West Orange, a church divided

The Star-Ledger ^ | Tuesday, December 28, 2004 | JEFF DIAMANT

[Conservative til I die]

Interesting...so what you're saying is any Novus Ordo Catholic, regardless of their views, is not a true Catholic. I'll have to disagree with this.

[Salvation]

I agree!

[Grey Ghost II]

There are 2 Indult Masses in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. Why are you going to the SSPX?

Why not?

[netmilsmom]

>>Interestingly, I haven't met a Trad who hasn't fit every negative stereotype yet. <<

Well, please come to my house for dinner. We are loving and fun. Just because I take communion on my tongue and cover my head does not make me a bad person. If you could see the Protestant/Catholic church I came from, you may understand why I raise my children traditionally.

[netmilsmom]

>>What was the final disposition of the lawsuit, mentioned in the 1994 Macomb Daily article, you referenced in this column...?<<

I would like to know as well. I do know that the original Independent Catholic parish that the priest came from closed for lack of funds. The school closed as well but the seminary is still open.

[thor76]

The problem with Novus Ordo Catholics is this: most are either not strong in their faith, or at least they are weak in their knowledge/training. If your faoundations & training in the faith are weak, you are very susectable to being subtly manipulated into apostacy.

A simple example by way of externals. Most older Catholics were taught to genuflect before the tabernacle, and that unecessary talking in church was disrespectful to God. Since many younger Catholics were not taught such things, it might be understandable if they do not do what is correct in these matters.

But where does that leave the cradle Catholic over 40? He/she should know better, yet 9 times out of 10 in any NO church you will NOT see them genuflect bvefore the Presense, and they will talk......er... make that SHOUT to each other before and after mass, like its a beerhall! Yet, they should certainly know better - right? And we all have seen those who are quiet in church, otherwise devout, yet who do not genuflect.

Why is this? Because they have/are gradually being led into unfaith. Because there is no clear, firm teaching universally taught much less applied in the NO.

If one can be gradually and subtly led away from the faith in superficial externals.......one can be profoundly led away from the faith in essentials.

In a nutshell, there is tendency for the NO Catholic to be weak, and to be led, as they trust too much, do not ask questions, as tend to go with the flow. Spiritually, that is a receipe for disaster.

By this I do not mean that all NO Catholics are bad people or fools. No indeed. But, they are placing themselves in a position to be misled by misapplied trust.

[mattcabbott]

But why does "Fr. Moderator" hide behind a pseudonym? Why does he keep his background a secret? If he truly is a validly ordained priest, he should have no problem making that information known.

Basically, if he wishes to lambaste every aspect of the "Novus Ordo" Church, the least he can do is be forthright about who he is.

I am.

[sinkspur]

In a nutshell, there is tendency for the NO Catholic to be weak, and to be led, as they trust too much, do not ask questions, as tend to go with the flow. Spiritually, that is a receipe for disaster.

LOL! This implies that the trads--SSPX and sedes--are strong, that they refuse to be led, that they trust not at all, that they question everything, and buck the tide.

Describes Martin Luther very well.

[thor76]

Again, I dont see his true identity as a serious issue. I am much more interested in what he says and why. That is what really counts. For that matter, I could be a priest......but you would never know one way or another, now would you? All that really matter is the substance of what I have to say - whether or not you agreee with it.

Perhaps, like other writers who use a pseudonym, he uses anonymity to have the freedom to express himself, wheras he might not be so free to do so otherwise.

Personally, I find the use of a pen name to be quite useful.....and I use more then one (in other venues).

[Conservative til I die]

What I find interesting is that the Trads are the ones that have been led into the idea that Latin has always been the language of the liturgy.

I don't have a problem with the Latin Mass, or the pre-Vatican II ways. I have an issue with people saying that is the only way.

[sinkspur]

I have an issue with people saying that is the only way.

Not much you can do about it. The far right and the far left have a great deal in common.

[hobbes1]

I didnt say you did it. But nonetheless, IT is a fact and a small cadre at the center of your little faction is responsible.
And as far as to any public posting, I was commenting beyond that, to the actual goings on, these forums notwithstanding.

Actually, I am fairly disinterested in your goings on, and if you look back, it was not MY baiting, but latae sententie that started in with that garbage.

However, once again, it is always you people that start in with the casting of the aspersions.

[hobbes1]

Not a fan of the Traditio site myself, though those that have split off were posting from/to that website during the whole contentious period.

[latae sententiae]

Actually, I am fairly disinterested in your goings on

Interested enough to keep yourself "fairly privy to every little detail," though, or so you thought.

[hobbes1]

No, I am told on a more passive basis. I dont need to inquire....to be perfectly honest, if you people would stop with the snide remarks, you would find no one would be saying anything at all...Most of the people that remained, are only replying to the insults and aspersions being cast by those that left.

[hobbes1]

And As to Interested enough to keep yourself "fairly privy to every little detail," though, or so you thought. that, that has not changed only the time it takes for info to filter back.

Now that some among you have driven off (and that phrase is painfully correct, and while I am not accusing YOU personally, that should at the very least provide some illumination as to the character of the discontent here...) Fr. Murphy...Some of those that are not at St.A's but not at the VFW, are nonetheless contacted on a regular basis.

[latae sententiae]

I have not seen Fr. Murphy since the 9:00 Mass on 11/15 at St. Anthoy's. Therefore, it would not be right for me to comment on anything that's happened with him since then. There's already been quite enough hearsay passed off as fact with respect to all this.

[Rosary]

You may disagree, but it is a true fact.
Why do you think these folks and others adhereing to the old Latin traditional Latin Mass, are spiritually fighting to hang on? If the New Ordo was any good, the hundreds of Catholic Churches across the globe would NOT be closing, there would be NO shortage of priests, nuns ect. schools would be teaching the truths that there is one TRUE GOD and His Commandments,Not
NO PRAYER IN SCHOOLS , no fear or love of God, the clergy would wear their habits ,Not Plain everyday joe clothes, and the scapular and the rosary would be worn and recited daily in home and Church.
Conservative, there is a video out that tells the whole story, and watching it explains FULLY the situation in our Catholic Church today, I will post it , so all interested may see for themselves and UNDERSTAND, why Fr. Wickens and priests like him across the globe are saying NOTHING BUT THE OLD LATIN MASS. THe web is www.the-pope.com/isocmain.html
The video is called;WHAT WE LOST AND THE ROAD TO RESTORATION. YOu will see the results for it is an eyeopening tape and every Catholic priest and person should see it!!!!!!!! Praying for ALL, Mary help !

[sempertrad]

But nonetheless, IT is a fact and a small cadre at the center of your little faction is responsible.

That's entirely false, hobbes. The people who decided to go with Fr. M are a small handful of people who are completely separate from the group spotlighted in the above article. I'm not trying to be snotty here, but given that you were wrong about most of us who left - where we held Masses, who was saying them for us - isn't it possible that there's much more you might be mistaken about or unaware of? As far as TRADITIO and the "vilification" of Father M, just a few points: First, it seems strange to me that you're willing to believe this piece as Gospel truth. Should I assume you believe also that Fr. C was "kicked out" of the rectory, Fr. W's personal effects were thrown away, and numerous religious articles are gone, as TRADITIO previously reported? If not, why are you so willing to believe that those who left have "villified" Fr. M as TRADITIO is claiming? It seems folks are willing to take the comments on that site seriously only when it portrays their opponents in a bad light.

[thor76]

There are a few groups of folks who support and defend the NO in general: 1)those who sincerely believe it to be good whose reason has been blindsided, 2) those who sincerely believe it is good because they are decent and simple folk who do not know any better and are not educated enough to perceive a problem, 3) those who see the problem but will not allow themselves to admit to it nor comprehend all of the ramifications in their fullness - so they have a psychological need to deny there is a problem (as to do otherwise would upset their whole world.

People who fall into these categories are not evil - not in the least. Sadly for them, they have fallen into a type of spiritual and intellectual blindness. I should say that this list is not exhaustive, as there are those who fall into the cracks between these categories.

But in no way would I ever say that any of these type of people who believe that the NO is good are bad people. They are good people, who love God. Yet, they are misled.

In their own way, they are like a person on the deck of the sinking Titanic who are saying that "all is well". They refuse to believe in the reality of the iceberg.......the extent of the damage.......nor the ultimate reality that the ship is sinking. They believe the fairy tale of the current "new springtime".....because they want to.

That is how one can look at the drastic statistics of decline over the past 40 years, and say that all is rosy. That the best is yet to come. that we are better off now then we were.

The Evil One is a liar.....a master of deceipt, and always has been. He seeks to deceive all - liberal and trad alike. That should be self evident - that none are exempted.

How else can one explain the 70 year old woman who is applauding liturgical dance, and other abominations - when she should surely know better? The same is also true of good, devout mainline Protestants whose local churches have been transformed from places where the name of Jesus, nad his laws were loved, to social service centers, which preach modernism, and pseudo-marxism? Who now love and embrace what they would have spat out a generation ago?

I weep for both of them.

It is not for nothing that the majority of the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit are intellectual: Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Counsel. These each are distict and profound spiritual and intellectual gifts which result in the receiving of knowledge......the understanding of fundamental realities.......the wisdom to interpret what is given to us.......and intellectual and spiritual counsel to understand what is right, and the ability to counsel others as to the same.

All Catholics who have been validly Confirmed have received these gifts. But they can lie dormant. One must pray for them, again and again.....not merely to receive them, but to have the abilty to properly use them to "pierce beyoond the veil", as it were - and see the fundamentals concerning ourselves, those around us, and the realities affecting the church and world in general.

It is through these 7 gifts that God has made some of his greatest saints out of the simple, and uneducated. Truly, all knowedge comes from God. And he who truly seeks to know God will be given all the knowledge he needs.

So, do not criticise the adherant of the NO - rather pray for them, that the Holy Ghost may enlighten them to the truth. And fill them with His love.