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It appears the PCUSA's Replacement Theologians are now coming out to defend the PCUSA's decision to divest from Israel.
1 posted on 12/11/2004 12:20:16 PM PST by Presby Conservative
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To: Presby Conservative

I'm going to go on now before this thing gets rolling and point out that the PCUSA is a very liberal organization, much like the Democratic Party while Presbyterian Church of America consists of believing Christians who are conservative in their moral values and (more than not) their politics. Please don't lump all Presbyterians together.


2 posted on 12/11/2004 12:22:30 PM PST by SittinYonder (Tancredo and I wanna know what you believe)
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To: Presby Conservative
This line of thinking is quite contrary to the Reformed theological tradition, and most other theological traditions as well.

I reject this hackneyed so-called argument totally, and absolutely and uncompromisingly. Fortunately the writer was thoughtful enough to place it at the beginning of his argument.
Avoiding, for the moment, the clear problem of religion generally and questions of faith particularly, most reasonable people would defer to the oldest source.

It is as if we were asked to accept as more authoritative, a modern "version" of the Constitution, revised and clarified by perverts, deviants and other criminals.

That dog won't hunt.

3 posted on 12/11/2004 12:27:39 PM PST by Publius6961 (The most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.)
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To: Presby Conservative
PCUSA's decision to divest from Israel.

Why exactly are they doing this? Do they object to Israel defending herself (like the building of the fence, for instance)? Are they offended by Israel's close ties to the Bush Administration?

4 posted on 12/11/2004 12:31:04 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
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To: Presby Conservative
In purely secular terms, Israel has every right to defend itself as any other country has.

The only people who disagree with this are muslims and bigots.

6 posted on 12/11/2004 12:36:29 PM PST by LibKill (Anti-nannystate tagline.)
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To: Presby Conservative; Frumanchu
This article really seems to beg the question. Covenant/Replacement/Dispensational theology is decidedly NOT the issue. The REAL issue is this:

Was the UPCUSA's decision to divest in Israel Morally correct?


The rest is merely a digression.
8 posted on 12/11/2004 1:05:57 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper)
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To: Presby Conservative
The nation of Israel has completed its divine purpose by producing the promised Messiah.

Whether Israel (the nation or people) has completed its divine purpose or not is not for us to say.

11 posted on 12/11/2004 1:44:43 PM PST by nosofar
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To: Presby Conservative

Funny, I just can't seem to find that verse that speaks about ' the Paraguayians first and also the Gentile'.


12 posted on 12/11/2004 1:47:29 PM PST by Cvengr (;^))
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To: Presby Conservative
A Jew is one that is a Jew inwardly and circumcision is of the heart. The Jews today have been cut out because they do not believe in Jesus, and the Gentiles have been grafted in. Many Jews will be grafted back into the original vine but they will be the ones who God has revealed the Gospel to.

I am a Gentile by birth but consider myself a Jew as I am of the Covenant of faith and not the Law. However the land of Israel is holy and Jerusalem is holy. When Jesus returns to Jerusalem there will be peace there and also in the world, but it will start in Jerusalem.

13 posted on 12/11/2004 1:55:45 PM PST by normy (Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.)
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To: Presby Conservative
To call it mere anti-semitism, with the implication that the only sin commited is that emotions are 'used improperly' is in truth heresy and an attempt to cover up more heresy. It is much more than mere anti-semitism. It is the false gospel of 'free will' that the PC(USA) as a whole (and not just a 'few guys in leadership positions'...as the rest try to make out...) has embraced come home to roost. Replacement Theology is nothing more itself than "My will is so free and big it needs more grist for its mill. So I'll take your promises too." But God is not mocked.

Proverbs 27:20 Sheol and destruction are insatiable; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Proverbs 30:15-17 The leech hath two daughters: Give, give. There are three things never satisfied; four which say not, It is enough: --Sheol, and the barren womb; the earth which is not filled with water, and the fire which saith not, It is enough. The eye that mocketh at a father, and despiseth to obey a mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it.

Micah 2:7,8 O thou that art named the house of Jacob, Is Jehovah impatient? are these his doings? Do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly? But of late my people is risen up as an enemy: ye strip off the mantle with the garment from them that pass by securely, that are averse from war.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

14 posted on 12/11/2004 3:03:23 PM PST by telder1
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To: Presby Conservative; All

Romans 11:25-27 (New American Standard Bible)


25For (A)I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (B)mystery--so that you will not be (C)wise in your own estimation--that a partial (D)hardening has happened to Israel until the (E)fullness of the Gentiles has come in;


26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"(F)THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."



27"(G)THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(H)WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

 

DG

(See tag line.)

17 posted on 12/11/2004 3:54:24 PM PST by DoorGunner (Romans 11:26 "...and so all Israel shall be saved.")
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To: Presby Conservative

I'm sorry if I offend anyone but this man is a spoon fed idiot.


19 posted on 12/11/2004 5:07:39 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Presby Conservative
The title of this piece forgets relationship and history.

Isaiah 49: 13 Sing, O heavens! Be joyful, O earth! And break out in singing, O mountains! For the LORD has comforted His people, And will have mercy on His afflicted. 14 But Zion said, "The LORD has forsaken me, And my Lord has forgotten me." 15 "Can a woman forget her nursing child, And not have compassion on the son of her womb? Surely they may forget, Yet I will not forget you. 16 See, I have inscribed you on the palms [of My hands;] Your walls [are] continually before Me.

20 posted on 12/11/2004 7:26:36 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!)
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To: Presby Conservative

This author(ess?) displays a woeful lack of understanding of the Bible, and Eschatology!


23 posted on 12/12/2004 1:06:43 AM PST by LiteKeeper (Secularization of America is happening)
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To: Presby Conservative

Actually God's dealings with Israel are not yet complete. According to the prophecies in Daniel; God's judgement was to befall Israel for 70 Sabatical Weeks or 70 sets of 7 years. After the 69th week (69th set of 7 years) Massiah would be cut -off and there would be a period of time between the 69th and 70th sabatical week. This happened when Christ was crucified on the cross exactly at the end of the 69th week. So God's dealings with Israel still have one more set of 7 years before it is complete. That 7 years is known as the time of Jacob's Trouble in the Old Testament. It is a time of testing and tribulation for Israel and the world just before God's dealings with Israel is complete and Christ returns... also known as the Tribulation. Now that Israel exists again, God's Word can literally be fulfilled once again and finally.


24 posted on 12/12/2004 2:58:49 AM PST by one of His mysterious ways
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To: Presby Conservative

Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai elohenu, Adonai echad!


25 posted on 12/12/2004 11:02:06 AM PST by onedoug
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To: Presby Conservative

I'll leave that judgement to God.


26 posted on 12/12/2004 1:27:07 PM PST by followerofchrist
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To: Presby Conservative
You say:
Old Testament verses in which the Lord promises blessing and protection for Israel. The assumption of many writers, both clergy and laypeople, seems to be that the Israel of the Old Covenant and the modern state of Israel are, if not one and the same, at least equal in God's purview and interest. This line of thinking is quite contrary to the Reformed theological tradition, and most other theological traditions as well. This line of thinking is quite contrary to the Reformed theological tradition, and most other theological traditions as well.

The Biblical Old Testament teachings are in regards to Israel (12 tribes) as a chosen people (not the Jews specifically), with promises of blessings and prosperity (Deut. 23:15), which still holds true today. It is still conditional on obeyance to YHWH's law of the 10 commandments, not the ritual law of sacrifices that was done away with at the cross. With Y'hshua's redemptive work, these promises and blessings are now available for the aliens, strangers, Gentiles, etc. as well. They can all receive the "adoption of sons" and become "an heir of YHWH through Y'hshua". The conditions still are based on accepting Y'hshua as Saviour and obeying the 10 commandments of Exodus 20. Those who obey and do his commandments have always been blessed and will receive the greatest blessing of all by being an heir with Y'hshua in his Kingdom.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Nothing has changed. The name of the game is obey. Obey YHWH's law, not man's traditions, theology, doctrines, false commandments, or whatever other term that exists. The promises are still the same and are conditional on obeyance.

You say:
In the Old Testament, the blessings of God were poured out the Old Covenant people – the Jews

The blessings of YHWH were not poured out just on the Jews. They were poured out on God's people since the days of Adam on down and the blessings are vast and innumerable. Noah was blessed (Gen 9:1). In Gen 12:2 we see that Abraham was blessed and he received the Promise of the Covenant (Gen 12:7) 236 years before Judah was born. The land from the Nile to the Euphrates was to be an inheritance for Isaac and his descendents. The sign of the circumcision was proof of this inheritance. The land where the Iraqui war is currently being fought is over this inheritance. The Palestinians are the Edomites of Esau who lost his right to this land when he sold his inheritance to Jacob (Israel) for a bowl of soup. They've held a grudge against Israel ever since. YHWH hates Esau and loves his people Israel (12 tribes, not just the Jews). Mal. 1:3,4. They are now being ousted out of land that really isn't theirs. So are all the other disobedient non-Christ believing peoples made up of Moabites, Ammonites, Canaanites, and other Muslim and so called Christian groups as well. The blessings were not only for Jews. When we speak about blessings, it is important to be specific and name the blessing, etc.

You say:
In the New Testament, since the Old Covenant has been fulfilled in the incarnation and the veil of the temple torn in two, God's blessing is on the people of the New Covenant, the church.

This new covenant hasn't taken place yet. This is a big misconception that everyone believes to be true. The new covenant will not come into effect until when YHWH joins together the house of Judah and the house of Israel (Ephraim).

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
See also Eze 37:15-28; Jer. 31:33; Eze 36:24; Isa 24:5,6; there are over 50 verses on this topic.

The reunification of the two houses hasn't occurred yet but it won't be long. Now you know the rest of the story --- about the war, that is.

You say:
The nation of Israel has completed its divine purpose by producing the promised Messiah.

The nation of Israel didn't accomplish that. Again you need to be specific. Y'hshua came specifically from the Lion tribe and lawgiver which is Judah (Gen 49:10). Judah is one of the 12 Israelite tribes. Y'hshua did not come from the other 11 tribes, which is what your statement implies.

You say:
The modern state of Israel shares only a name with the Biblical nation of the Hebrews and has no more claim on God's promises and blessing than Paraguay.

The state of Israel is made up of various peoples as I've mentioned earlier. Jews who claim to be Jews but are not will be ousted or destroyed. The same with any other peoples who as I've said do not accept Christ as Saviour and Keep his Commandments.

You say:
Simply stated, in Jesus Christ the church is the new Israel.

Who do you call the church? Mother Babylon, the Evangelicals, etc.? What do you call the new Israel? Does it include only the region of the Oslo Accord? Is Gaza included? What about the West Bank? Is Iraq included? We need specifics.

You say:
Dispensationalism denies the finality of the New Covenant and teaches that God's working with humanity is vested in Israel and that at some future date the temple will be rebuilt, sacrifices reinstituted, and the Law of Moses restored.

As I've pointed out earlier, the New Covenant is not in effect yet. No point in discussing the rest.

You say:
Jesus came to fulfill the Old Covenant, not to interrupt it.

He fulfilled the ritual part of the Mosaic law, which was a shadow of what was to come in Y'hshua's role as Messiah and Redeemer not only of lost house of Israel but for all man-kind.

YHWH Bless You in your search for the TRUTH.

27 posted on 12/12/2004 5:04:41 PM PST by Harrymehome
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