The Mother of the Son: The Case for Marian Devotion

CatholicEducatorsResourceCenter.org ^ | 2004 | Mark Shea

[Between the Lines]

How can Jeremiah talk to Judas if Jeremiah was dead?

Jeremiah (dead) talked to Judas (alive). This is vision ( 2 Machabees 15:12 Now the vision was in this manner...) not a prayer of a living person to someone dead.

You might note that Judas prayed only to God in this chapter:

2 Machabees 15:26-27, But Judas, and they that were with him, encountered them, calling upon God by prayers: 27 So fighting with their hands, but praying to the Lord with their hearts...

[No_Outcome_But_Victory]

Revelation 7:

9 After this, I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: Salvation to our God, who sitteth upon the throne and to the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne and the ancients and the four living creatures. And they fell down before the throne upon their faces and adored God,
12 Saying: Amen. Benediction and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving, honour and power and strength, to our God, for ever and ever. Amen.
13 ¶ And one of the ancients answered and said to me: These that are clothed in white robes, who are they? And whence came they?
14 And I said to him: My Lord, thou knowest. And he said to me: These are they who are come out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore, they are before the throne of God: and they serve him day and night in his temple. And he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell over them.

[ScottM1968]

If that is what the Catholic church bases its "praying through the dead", I need to rethink what respect I have had for it.

That is a poor justification. It is also ridiculous to believe that a group in 400 AD made Mary into what she has now become, when before she had no such status.

How is this not the creeping of a perversion of Scripture, even if one accepts the Maccabees (which the Catholic church does not in total)?

[PleaseNoMore]

No, I didn't say that Jesus did not respect his mother. Never said that at all. Yes, Jesus did the miracle at his mother's request but he also performed miracles at the request of others. So, rephrasing here...Is one person more important to Jesus than another? No. He died for us all, including Mary, his earthly mother.

While you may think "behold your mother" literally means that He intended for His statement to mean that she was the mother of all Christians, I believe that He was doing what was customary for His time and seeing that Mary, a widow, was being cared for. Had He meant to "give" her to us as a mother or establish her as an important part of His church, he would have certainly said so. If this is the case why didn't any of the disciples or Paul, who addressed so much, ever mention Mary again in such a manner?

Mary is incapable of performing miracles. She is incapable of interceding on our behalf. She cannot bless us. She cannot protect us. She can't do anything for us. She is dead. I believe that Mary, an humble servant of God, would be embarassed by the glory and, in some cases, the Christ like status assigned to her by some.

[PleaseNoMore]

I don't get it. When someone disagrees with the doctrines of the Catholic church they are accused of ridiculing them. Yes, I disagree and express why I disagree but I am definately not ridiculing. It's far too important a spiritual topic to joke about.

I do not diminish her importance as a servant of God. But, I do not feel that she is any more important then other servants, some of whom have given their very lives for their faith. God chooses us all for His service. Some of us may do great and mighty things that will be remembered throughout history as Mary did. Some of us may do great and mighty things never revealed to another man but only known by God.

[Convert from ECUSA]

Well said, Marcellinus!

[No_Outcome_But_Victory]

#68 was mine. I had to ask Admin Moderator to remove it since I needed to ask permission to post the article, and didn't read that until I had already posted it.

Anyway, the article is entitled "Why do Catholics pray to Saints": http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/saints.html

Please read it before critiquing on "dead" people praying for you.

God Bless.

[No_Outcome_But_Victory]

I don't get it. When someone disagrees with the doctrines of the Catholic church they are accused of ridiculing them. Yes, I disagree and express why I disagree but I am definately not ridiculing. It's far too important a spiritual topic to joke about.

You have been pretty respectful. Thank you for having some Christian charity. Many otherwise nice persons think it's great fun to bash Catholics, especially from the relative safety of their computer.

Please see the link to the article I posted in #69.

[Fithal the Wise]

So what do you do with

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1Timothy 2:5

[SaltyJoe]

Not to insult your honest intelligence and well written argument, but have you never gone through your own mom to get a favor from dad?

Wouldn't a virtuous mother, like St Mary, always point to a father's authority and never undermine his rule?

I understand your apprehensions since Satan has appeared as saints, but patience and prayer always purges such evil.

Can you honestly say that you'd never talk in prayer to a dead relative? As a Catholic, I cannot honor enough the bestest of spiritual relatives as Our Blessed Mother.

[PleaseNoMore]

I would never bash anyone because of their beliefs. I amy argue and carry on but never bash them, lol.

[PleaseNoMore]

amy=may

[ScottM1968]

I have gone through my mother to get something from my dad.

My problem is that talking to the dead is not supported by Scripture. God lives. The rest of us, no matter how "good" we were, die. Our lives in heaven cannot impact God on behalf of those left behind and those left behind cannot speak to those passed on.

I have great respect for many Catholics I've known and have done some things with the local Catholic church and been to some retreats as well (I did not take Communion knowing it to be wrong for a Protestant and instead crossed my arms). But my concerns surround that which can be supported by Scripture. Even the Maccabees reference given earlier was a very poor defense of "dead talking".

Additionally, the idea that people should find worthy as a sign pictures of Mary in any and everything rather than perhaps images of Christ really leaves me scratching my head. What makes an image of Mary so much more exhaltable than one of Christ (even though we do not know what He looked like, save for being unassuming)? And yet, the Catholic church finds it necessary to hold these up to its members and the world as signs of some importance. I do not recall such "image admiration" in the Old or New Testaments.

Nor do I understand by which "annulments" are considered valid under God. While I appreciate the stance on divorce (and will not get divorced myself and I will remain single or reconcile if my wife divorced me), the annulment thing, especially after a decade or more of marriage has passed, is patently ridiculous.

Aside from such human constructs the Catholic Church has endorsed, I basically agree with much the Catholic Church does believe and stand for.

[No_Outcome_But_Victory]

I would never bash anyone because of their beliefs. I amy argue and carry on but never bash them, lol.

I thank you for that. It is perfectly reasonable to ask questions of other Christians (and Catholics ARE Christians, BTW). St Peter wrote that we are always to be ready to give a defense to the hope that is within us 1Pet 3:15.

I am converting to the Catholic Church and have problems with some of these doctrines also. Believe you me, I wouldn't for one second stay in a church that I thought dishonored God, or took glory away from Him. I think most Catholics think the same way. If they thought any devotion to Mary was sinful, they wouldn't do it.

[Conservative til I die]

Protestant Christians do not recoil at the name of Mary. We just don't involve dead people in our worship.

Yes, you read that right. MARY IS DEAD AND IN HER GRAVE.

That is not to flame or torque you off, it's just what Protestants believe.

I am not trying to be mean, so please do not take it that way.

So I assume you Protestants don't believe in an afterlife?

[No_Outcome_But_Victory]

In reality the deutero-canonical books were not officially included in the RC canon until the 19th century,

Your information is incorrect.

I hold Mary in high esteem as the mother of our Lord, but worshipful adoration is for Deity alone.

Neither do Catholics worship Mary. Or Saints. Catholics ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us living on earth because all are alive to God, and are able to know the situation on earth, according to Scripture.

Everything a Catholic believes is readily available at the Vatican website.

[Conservative til I die]

I agree. I can find absolutely no scriptural basis for praying to deceased persons. I find no example of anyone in the bible asking the deceased to pray for them.

Either

A)Protestants don't go to Heaven or Hell after they die, and just rot in the ground.

or

B) Protestants don't believe in asking the living to pray for them either. Because if they disagree with A, then what is the difference between asking someone in the afterLIFE to pray for them, and asking someone on Earth?