Question to Christians From a Jewish Friend

December 9, 2004 | Michael Katz

[Mike10542]

Hey fellow freepers, having been swept up in the battle of conservatives first liberals and believers in God vs. non-beleivers I clearly have chosen the right side here (hence me writing on Free Republic). The alignment of Jews like myself and many fellow Christians is one that I feel is very necesary to win the war against evil and have peace in our time. Although I choose to ignore all the leftists and others who try to break up this loving partnership by saying "They are only on your side becuase they want the Jews in control of Jerusalem so Christ returns," I am looking to explore what the Bible really teaches about the Jewish fate from the Christian perspective. It is hard to find what the majority opinion is because the internet is, well, the internet. What I have made out so far is that during rapture I beleive 2/3's of Jews are killed, but one third survive. So my questions are:

1) What do the 2/3's of Jews die from (war, just happens????)

2) What happens to the remaning 1/3 of Jews after they survive?

3) Do any of this remaining 1/3 of Jews make it past the final judgement of God (some interpertations say no, others say the remaining Jews are allowed to pass once accepting God and I think Christ)

I truly beleive in my Jewish fate as I have been raised Jewish, but my mom is Christian. So each religion I respect and believe are good. Ultimately, I hope us Jews and Christians both make it together to the promised land (and only the Muslims are sent to hell!)

Thanks for all your answers. Also, feel free to direct me to anywhere where I can learn more about this subject.

[missyme]

I imagine when the big split took place: removing anything Jewish from Christianity....

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Ya like monotheism

[missyme]

I take it you do not adhere to the belief that Jesus Christ is GOD in the flesh?
The Great "I AM"

[Invincibly Ignorant]

That's correct.

[missyme]

Well GOD made man in his own image: maybe that means something different to you..GOD does not change his spirit is within us..There is only 1 creator yet GOD can manifest himself any way he wants WHY because he's GOD.

[1 spark]

RE:Don't mis-interpet the truth of Jesus's Gospels that was highjacked by the early church.

Ah, Missyme, take your own advice. We are in agreement here. Yes, the early church hijacked the gospel (the "good news" that Jesus preached) and turned it into Constantinian Christianity. Jesus was a devout Jew. He did not come to start a new religion which incorporated him as part of a trinitarian Godhead. The messiah was never prophesied to be God. You really ought to read For Christ's Sake, as I've suggested to you before. It's short, simple and to the point.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Well GOD made man in his own image: maybe that means something different to you..GOD does not change his spirit is within us..There is only 1 creator yet GOD can manifest himself any way he wants WHY because he's GOD.

Well the only way you can arrive at the conclusion he manifested himself as a man is to accept NT writings as inspired scripture. I'm sorry. I cannot. I believe the writings are a product of the community and the community is not a product of the writings. I assume you have trouble believing such things as the perpetual virginity of Mary, papal authority, apostolic succesion etc. etc.? Yet you trust these same people in putting together and canonizing the NT writings.

[Rockingham]

We are irrevocably of different minds on this since, as I indicated, my perspective on the subject is Roman Catholic. "The Rapture" is contary to Catholic doctrine and teaching, which I accept and believe. In essence, the Church regards the era of Christianity as the "end times." The following offer a better explanation than I am capable of:

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0211/opinion/olson.html

http://www.onerock.com/issue_3/issue_3_24.htm

Notably, the author of both articles, Carl E. Olson, began as a fundamentalist and a believer in the Rapture, but he eventually rejected them and converted to Catholicism. Do not take any of this as a challenge to your beliefs, only as an explanation of my own.

[1 spark]

What was Jesus'message? The various churches still operate on the axiom that his message concerned himself. Here, they say, is God-in-the-flesh, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, walking about the Holy Land with a group of former fishermen, proclaiming himself as the only way of salvation. He is the content of his message: or rather he is the message itself.

As I realized, however, the moment I could read the New Testament with any seriousness, and long before I had read a word of modern scholarly criticism, this is not what the Gospels say at all. If you begin with the Gospel According to St. Mark --the earliest of the four, written in about A.D. 64, approximately thirty years after the crucifixion --you will find that Jesus came preaching the "good news of God" and saying: "The time is fulfilled and the Kingdom of God is at hand. Repent [have a change of heart] and put your trust in this good news" (1:14-15)

John's Gospel is quite different from the first three in tone and content and so will be considered at a later point. But if you take the combined witness of Mark, Matthew, and Luke, it is obvious that Jesus came to proclaim what is translated as the Kingdom of God or of Heaven--the two are synonymous. His message had primarily to do not with himself but with God, whom he called Father. This message is a gospel (Greek euaggelion) or good news because it makes the amazing affirmations, that despite all appearances to the contrary, God is in control of human affairs.

excerpted from "FOR CHRIST'S SAKE"...by Tom Harpur
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/077103945X/qid=1078125140/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-6295232-1813565?v=glance&s=books

[Twinkie]

There's a verse of Scripture that says, "and so all of
Israel shall be saved" . . beyond that I can't figure
a lot of the book of Revelation out . . the Lord will have
to take care of me . . .

[missyme]

So how did Moses see GOD? how did he hear GOD? GOD created man right? in who's image?

[missyme]

GOD is one Is GOD within us? GOD is always the same...

I imagine when people have NDE's and see a bright light that is GOD? I see GOD manifesting himself any way he wants to however being a perfect GOD and having an imperfect world of humans the good news is Jesus, otherwise we would be a nation that could make GOD into any image or idol of someone's imagination...

I plan on getting your recommended book...

[missyme]

Another thing 'GOD YAWEH, JEHOVAH is the GOD I think we can agree on created the world and man, that being the case he is not in the form of a human being I mean he is not a man sitting up in heaven on a throne but he is what makes him GOD encompassing GOD Man and Holy Spirit, that is why I believe the trinity, can GOD save us as a Lion or a Bear no that is not his image MAN is his image...

[walden]

I don't trust our ability to read those signs. After all, Christians have believed they have seen those signs off and on since Christ's resurrection. And, I see no possible use that the information could be to us. The Gospel tells us to be like the good servant-- diligent at all times, always ready for the Master to return. Makes sense to me. Who can know the mind of God? ;)

[Aliska]

What's your point?

I'm too tired now to say much more on this tonight, and your points are well taken.

I'm content with the liturgy in the closest church I can get to. It is respectful and communion is offered in both kinds among other good things. The music lovers wouldn't care for the organ music, but it is nice to hear church music after so long being away so I'm not going to be too fussy about those things. Things don't have to be perfect for me. I just can't go where they do crazy things, use invalid matter, etc., that sort of thing.

Sorry if I misunderstood you as a rigid legalist. I really don't know what you are like at all, but there are so many people here who pick things apart, I am going to try to avoid that without compromising some of my thoughts and unresolved questions and problems.

What was my point? Peter founded the church at Antioch. That was all. I hadn't known that until I got on the internet and met some eastern Christians although it is in the bible.

[judicial meanz]

I am the child of a Jewish father and a Christian mother.

I guess I could be Jewish according to two sects of Judaism but I'm not now-because I converted to Christianity in my 20's while I was in the service.

I married a Jewish woman back in the days religion didnt matter to me, and over the years we have had two kids.

The problems of the world today arent going to pass over my house and leave me alone just because I am not up to Halacha standards, or in accordance with a Church Doctrine.

Half Jews, Crypto Jews, mamzers, whatever you call us, we have a unique insight into the topics of this discussion. I think somewhere along the line, we have a destiny to fulfill in this equation as well. I don't exactly know what it is.


On the topic at hand, I think Rabbi Rosensweig spelled it out best when he wrote the "Star of Redemption" theory. Christianity is evangelical and destined to spread the word to the world. Judaism is the corporate knowledge. Christianity brings people to G-d. Jews are already with G- and dont need to be brought into the fold.

Thats my .02

[raygun]

Your post is one of the most saddening things I've ever read in my life.

Let me elucidate what I understand your position to be:

1) you deny dispansationalism and all dispensational distinctions. Only with this denial can the church be placed squarely in the period called "Jacob's Trouble (Jer 30:7)"

2) you deny a distinction between the church and Israel

3) you deny scriptural teaching concerning the nature and the purpose of the tribulation purpose. Scripture uses terms such as: wrath, judgement, indignation, trial, trouble, and destruction, stating that the divine purpose is God's pouring out of judgement on sin.

4) you deny all distinctions observed from scripture between the rapture and the second advent of Christ (being one and the same event)

5) you deny all doctrine immenence of the coming of the Lord, substituting instead that a multitude of signs must be fullfilled before the Lord can come.

6) you deny any future fullfillment of Daniel 9:24-27 (claiming it has been fullfilled historically)

7) you apply major passages of scripture outlining God's program for Israel (Mt 13; 24-25; Rev 4-19) to the church.

8) your system is predicated upon denials rather than a postiive exposition of Scripture.

There's no point in going any further with you, except perhaps if you deny Eph 2:8,9 or Jn 3:16 do not actually intimate what they literally intimate to mean. Perhaps Rm 4:5 has some allegorical meaning to you. The Roman Catholic Church espouses a great deal of doctrine that can not be reconciled correctly with scripture (either its literal meaning according to the normal meaning of words used, or figures of speech in comman usage, in a historical, grammatical, and contextual (or allegorical when outright stated as being so) use. Instead you prefer to defer all matters of this importance to experts. Let me tell you something: scripture intimates that God is no respecter of people, social sture, education, or the like.

Notice one thing, that this thread is respecting the rapture. Your insistance upon the Roman Catholic church as being the supreme arbiter of dogma and doctrine conerning matters of faith doesn't fly with me. In my mind ther is only ONE Supreme Court concerning those matters (a court from which there is NO appeal) and that is the Bible (cf. Acts 17:11). I implore you to read II Tim 3 (pay particular attention to v16). The very last thing that I'm doing is doubting your salvation; it is a very private and personal matter between you and God. However, your advocation of heresy is extremely unsettling.

It grieves me personally and most immensely, although I'm sure, not as deeply as it does the Holy Spirit, to know that the philosophy of man takes precedence (with respect authority) over that of the Word of God. The Book of Jude is most expository on my position.

[Rockingham]

The cause of your sadness seems to be the existence of the Roman Catholic Church and that it does not accept Dispensationalist doctrines. But if Dispensationalism is correct, then the resistance of the Catholic Church and its adherents is the prophesied state of affairs and ought not to be a cause for sadness, irritation, or anger. Take a look at the links that I suggested in my prior post for a fuller account of the reasons for Catholic rejection of Dispensationalism.

[kosta50]

Trinitarian christians most certainly reject Judaism. You seem to assume and equate early Jewish "belief" to that of today's trinitarians

Trinitarianism has nothing to do with any alleged rejection of Judaism. Jews recognize that God manifests Himself by His Wisdom, Word and Spirit (Trinitarian manifestation of God). Christianity redefined Judaism within Judaism. St. Paul certainly considered himself a Jew. Christianity was rejected by Judaism, not the other way around.

[raygun]

The cause of my sadness is that you won't god-damn look to the bible, but at everything else and everybody else. Screw you, your church and everthing it ever stood for (I'm sure everybody that was put to death by being contrary to its views will cheer). Don't tell me what my problem is, when most obviuosly you haven't spent a heart-beat whatsoever examining what I've said to you. The record shows clearly how that goes...