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THE MATHEMATICAL SIGNATURE OF GOD IN THE WORDS OF SCRIPTURE [INCREDIBLE PROOF]
BOOK THE SIGNATURE OF GOD: Documented Evidence That Proves Beyond Doubt the Bible Is the Inspired... ^ | 1998 | GRANT R JEFFERY

Posted on 11/28/2004 4:42:56 PM PST by Quix

NOTE: If I know anything about the rabid naysayers on FR, at least some of the RELIGIOUS [vs spiritual] types will wail and rant that ANYTHING having to do with numbers and The Bible has to be crossing the line into dealing with Biblically forbidden NUMEROLOGY. This is nonsense. The dictionary definition of “numerology” makes clear that numerology is the study of numbers, as the figures designating the year of one’s birth, “to determine their supposed influence on one’s life, future, etc.” [Quix color, bold emphasis on the definition from:

HERE: http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0562554.html

Clearly, the Biblically prohibited issue is INTEREST IN, TRUST IN, FASCINATION IN, FAITH IN A SUPERNATURAL OCCULTIC CONNECTION, PHENOMENA OR DYNAMIC rather than Faith in God.

Please note also, I didn’t go back and insert the italics codes for the rather many italicized words. Sorry. Have other priorities today, too. As usual, the color bolded is my emphasis.

CHAPTER 12 excerpt for fair use discussion from

The Signature of God

By Grant R Jeffery

The Book has many chapters of impressive study and research including photos from Sinai Peninsula re Moses’ led crossing at the EXODUS etc. I encourage people to buy and read the whole book. It’s well worth the time. NOTE: Jeffrey uses Hebrew Letters in the text. I’ve forgotten my Hebrew alphabet and certainly don’t know how to post them. If someone can clue me in (listing the Hebrew alphabet with the letter’s names in English letters—as well as how to post the Hebrew), I’ll see what I can do, later.

The Mathematical Signature of God in the Words of Scripture

The Scriptures reveal God as the great mathematician who knows the smallest detail of His creation, and measures and numbers all things. This character of God is consistent with the revealed phenomenon of staggering complexity involving mathematical patterns within the text of the Scriptures. The Bible declares that God is so concerned with the details of His children's lives that He has numbered the hairs on our head. "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:30). The prophet Isaiah speaks of His majesty and His concern for numbering and measuring all things [paragraphing added by Quix]:

"Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, measured heaven with a span and calculated the dust of the earth in a measure? Weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in a balance?" (Isaiah 40:12, NKjv). When you consider the Bible's declaration that God "measured the waters," "measured heaven with a span," and "calculated the dust of the earth in a measure," it does not seem unusual or out of character that this same Almighty God would inspire His writers to record His precise message to mankind in the Scriptures with a mathematical precision within the original text that surpasses our ability to understand fully.

Evidence of Divine Authorship of the Old Testament

Ivan Panin was one of the most remarkable Christians to live in this century. Almost one hundred years ago, this fascinating and famous mathematician left Russia to settle eventually in Canada in the town of Aldershot, Ontario, not far from where I live. Although he was a committed atheist in his early years, he discovered the reality of Jesus Christ later. In 1890, Panin embarked on an exciting journey of scientific exploration of the text of the Bible that would prove that the Bible is truly the inspired Word of God. This century has witnessed a progressive abandonment of the doctrine of verbal inspiration of the Scriptures by many biblical scholars and religious leaders. As the leaders of many mainline churches succumbed to the continuous assaults on fundamental doctrines and the authority of Scripture, many Christian laymen began to lose their confidence that they could absolutely trust that the Bible was truly the inspired Word of God. As Ivan Panin wrote, "In the early centuries Christianity suffered most from its avowed enemies; in the last, from its professed friends."

Panin completed an astonishing study during the ^•'course of fifty years that revealed the most amazing mathematical pattern beneath the surface layer of the text of the Bible. He worked diligently up to eighteen hours a day for half a century to illustrate the divine inspiration and authority of Scripture. As one small example, Panin discovered that the first verse of the Book of Genesis contains an astonishing number of mathematical patterns that illustrate divine inspiration. “ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (Genesis 1:1).

The phenomenon of these mathematical patterns cannot be understood until we realize that the Bible was composed in alpha-numeric languages—Hebrew and Greek. These ancient languages did not possess Arabic numbers to express numeric data. Therefore, these languages used various letters of their alphabet to express numbers such as " 1,2,3," etc. In addition, a small portion of the Bible was written in Aramaic, which is also alpha-numeric. Each letter in these languages stood for a number. -In other words, each of the letters expressed both a letter and a number. When they wished to express a number, such as 22, they would choose two Hebrew letters—one letter [HEBREW LTR] stood for 20 and the second letter [HEBREW LTR] stood for 2.

The first letter of the Hebrew alphabet stood for 1, the second for 2, the third for 3, etc. When we come to the eleventh letter, it represented 20, the twelfth stood for 30, etc., all the way through to 800. Because each letter had a numeric value, every word can be given a numeric value by adding up the total value of each of the individual letters. In addition, every one of the Hebrew and Greek letters was given a place value as well. To help illustrate this phenomenon let's apply this system to the English language. It would look like this:

An Example Illustrated in the English Language

PLACE VALUE

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 20 30 40 50 60

NUMERIC VALUE

The Hebrew Language

PLACE VALUE

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

[FIRST 15 HEBREW LETTERS]

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 20 30 40 50 60

NUMERIC VALUE

Note that in the above example using the English alphabet the first ten letters have the same place values and numeric values. However, when we get to the eleventh letter K, the numeric value begins to increase by ten with each additional letter until we reach the value of 100. From that point in the alphabet forward the numeric value of each letter will increase by 100.

Every single word in Hebrew contains a series of letters with individual numeric values. For example, the word B'raisheet, "beginning," is expressed in Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew as [HEBREW LETTERS]. If you add up the total value of the individual letters in B'raisheet the numeric value of the word is 913. Since each word has a numeric value, we can add up the value of each of the words in a biblical verse to determine the numerical value of the sentence.

The Astonishing Pattern of SEVENS in Genesis 1:1

Let us begin by examining the first verse of the Bible to explore Panin's discovery.

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1)

[Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew]

Ivan Panin carefully examined the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:1 and discovered an incredible phenomenon of multiples of 7 that could not be explained by chance. Genesis 1:1 was composed of 7 Hebrew words containing a 28 letters. Throughout the Bible, the number 7 appears repeatedly as a symbol of divine perfection—the 7 days of creation. God rested on the 7th day, the 7 churches, the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, etc. In total, Panin discovered 30 separate codes involving the number 7 in this first verse of the Bible.

A Listing of the Phenomenal Features of Sevens Found in Genesis 1:

1. The number of Hebrew words.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
2. The number of letters equals 28 (28-4= 7) . . . . . Seven
3. The first three Hebrew words translated
“In the beginning God created” contain
14 letters (14 / 2 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Seven
4. The last four Hebrew words "the heavens
and the earth" have 14 letters (14-2=7) . . . . . . . .Seven
5. The fourth and fifth words have 7 letters . . . . . Seven
6. The sixth and seventh words have 7 letters . . . . .Seven
7. The three key words: God, heaven, and earth have 14 letters (14 / 2 = 7). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Seven
8. The number of letters in the four remaining s
words is also 14 (14 / 2 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
9. The middle word is the shortest with 2 letters.
However, in combination with the word to the
Right or left it totals 7 letters . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Seven
10. The numeric value of the first, middle,
(and last letters is 133 (133 / 19 = 7) . . . . . . . .. . . Seven
11. The numeric value of the first and last letters
of all seven words is 1,393 (1,393 - 199 = 7) Seven
When professors on the mathematics faculty at Harvard University were presented with this biblical phenomenon, they naturally attempted to disprove its significance as a proof of divine authorship. However, after valiant efforts these professors were unable to duplicate this incredible mathematical phenomenon. [QX PARAGRAPHING ADDED HERE]

The Harvard scientists used the English language and artificially assigned numeric values to the English alphabet. They had a potential vocabulary of over 400,000 available English words to choose from to construct a sentence about any topic they chose. [QX paragraphing added here]

Compare this to the limitations of word choices in the biblical Hebrew language, which has only forty-five hundred available word choices that the writers of the Old Testament could use. Despite their advanced mathematical abilities and access to computers the mathematicians were unable to come close to incorporating 30 mathematical multiples of 7 as found in the Hebrew words of Genesis 1:1.

If anyone doubts the difficulty of producing a passage following such an intricate pattern of sevens, I challenge you to try it yourself. I have tried, and it is impossible to complete a paragraph on any topic and remain true to the system of interlocking sevens. I doubt that anyone could complete a paragraph of over one hundred and fifty words following such a pattern of sevens, as found in Genesis 1:1 and Matthew, chapter 1, even if they were to devote several years to the effort. [QX added paragraphing, here].

The problem is that with the addition of every I fit single word and sentence the magnitude of the challenge to integrate the new phrase into the existing pattern grows geometrically. Each word and sentence must fit into the pattern existing within me preceding sentences. [Qx added paragraphing here].

In light of this virtual impossibility we need to remember that the writers of the Bible were forty-four mostly common men who wrote their individual texts separated from one another over a period of sixteen centuries. How could these ordinary men contribute to this hidden pattern without consultation when most of them never met their fellow authors? The only logical explanation is that God directed their minds through supernatural INSPIRATION TO WRITE His precise inspired words.

The number "seven" permeates the totality of Scripture because the number speaks of God's divine perfection and perfect order. The actual number 7 appears 287 times in the Old Testament (287 - 41 = 7) while the word seventh occurs 98 times (98 - 14 = 7). The word seven-fold appearst seven times. In addition, the word seventy is used 56 times • (56 / 8 = 7).

Panin discovered literally thousands of such mathematical patterns underlying all of the books of the Old Testament before his death in 1942. I refer the interested reader to Panin's book. The Inspiration of the Scriptures Scientifically Demonstrated,

which discusses these phenomena extensively. Panin and others have examined other Hebrew literature and have attempted to find such mathematical patterns, but they are not found anywhere outside the Bible.

Matthew 1:1-17—Evidence of Divine Authorship of the New Testament

Panin also examined the New Testament to discover whether or not the pattern continued. There were four hundred years of silence between the completion of the Old Testament ft around 396 B.C., and the writing of the New Testament following the resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, when God inspired the New Testament authors, including Matthew, to begin writing the Gospels, He again manifested His signature on the pages of Scripture by creating a marvelously complex pattern of sevens beneath the text of Matthew's Gospel.

The first section in Matthew's account consists of seventeen verses from Matthew 1:1 to 1:17 that describe in•detail one particular subject, the genealogy of Jesus Christ. This seventeen-verse text contains 72 Greek Vocabulary words. A Vocabulary word is a particular word different from any other word that was used in a passage. In other words, a Greek word that appears 6 times in the passage would only be counted as 1 Vocabulary word. Obviously, the number of Vocabulary words will differ from the number of total words appearing in the passage. The same system of numeric and place values for letters exists in the Greek language used in the New Testament as we found in Hebrew of the Old Testament.

A Listing of the Phenomenal Features of Sevens Found in Matthew 1:1-17

1 The total numeric value of the 72 Vocabulary
words is 43,364 (42,364 - 6,052 = 7) . . . . . . . Seven
2 The number of Greek nouns in the passage
IS 56 (56 / 8 = 7)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
3 The Greek article for “the” occurs 56 times
(56 / 8 = 7)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven

In the first eleven verses of Matthew 1:1-11 we find these additional features:

4 The number of Greek vocabulary words is 49
(49 / 7 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
5 Of these 49 words, 28 words begin with a vowel
(28 / 4 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Seven
6 Of these 49 words, 21 begin with a consonant
(21 / 3 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
7 The number of letters in these 49 words equals
266 (266 / 38 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
8 Of these 49 words, 35 words occur more than
one time (35 / 5 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
9 Of these 49 words, 14 words occur only one time
(14 / 2 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
10 The number of proper nouns is 35 (35/5=7) . . . . Seven
11 The number of times these proper nouns occur
is 63 (63 / 9 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
12 Of the 35 proper nouns, the number of
male names is 28 (28 / 4 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
13. Three women, Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth, are named
in this section. The number of Greek letters in
these three names is 7 (14 / 2 = 7) . . . . . . . . . Seven
Only a few of the numerical features that are found in this passage are listed in this analysis by Ivan Panin.

However, these features reveal an underlying profound mathematical design that reveals the signature of the true author of both the New Testament and the Old Testament— God Himself. However, to illustrate that this is not an unusual phenomenon occurring only in this one isolated passage, I will list some additional mathematical features that occur in the balance of Matthew 1:18-25 and describe the birth of Jesus Christ. In this seven-verse section God has placed an astonishing pattern of SEVENS that verify the signature of the original author.

The Pattern of SEVENS in Matthew 1:18-25—The History of Christ's Birth

1. The number of letters in the seven word
passage is 161 (161 -23=7) . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
2. The number of Vocabulary words is 77
. . . . (77-11=7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
3. Six Greek words occur only in this passage
. . . . . and never again in Matthew. These six
. . . . . .Greek words contain precisely 56 letters
. . . . . (56 - 8 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
4. The number of distinct proper nouns in
. . . . . the passage is 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
5. The number of Greek letters in these seven
. . . . . .proper nouns is 42 (42 - 6 = 7) . . . . . . . . Seven
6. The number of words spoken by the angel to
. . . . . . Joseph is 28 (28 - 4 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seven
7. The number of Greek forms of words used in
. . . . . . this passage is 161 (161 - 23 = 7) . . . . . . . Seven
8. The number of Greek forms of words in the
. . . . . angel’s speech is 35 (35 / 5 = 7) . . . . . . . . . Seven
9. The number of letters in the angel's 35 forms
. . . . . of words is 168 (168 / 24 = 7) . . . . . . . . . . . Seven

This phenomenal discovery by Panin has been examined by numerous authorities and the figures have been verified. In total, Panin accumulated over forty thousand pages of detailed calculations covering most of the text of the Bible before his death. [Qx added paragraphing here]

These incredible, mathematical patterns are not limited to the number seven. There are numerous other patterns. These amazing patterns appear in the vocabulary, grammatical forms, parts of speech, and particular forms of words. They occur throughout the whole text of the Bible containing 31,173 verses. When you consider the amazing details of this mathematical phenomenon you realize that the change of a single letter or word in the original languages of Hebrew or Greek would destroy the pattern. Now we can understand why Jesus Christ declared that the smallest letter and grammatical mark of the Scriptures were preserved by God's hand: "For verily I say unto you. Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” Matthew 5:18)

Naturally, the religious skeptics did not abandon their atheism in response to these incredible discoveries by Ivan Panin that revealed a staggering pattern of complexity hidden beneath the text of Scripture. After many skeptics had dismissed his research, Ivan Panin issued a public challenge through one of the major newspapers of the day, the New York Sun, in a letter to the editor on November 20, 1899, offering his detractors an opportunity to prove his research wrong if they could. [Qx added paragraphing here].

Panin issued his public challenge to some of the greatest atheist scholars of the day. "I herewith respectfully invite any or all of the following to prove that my facts are not facts: namely Messrs. Lyman Abbott, Washington Gladden, Herber Newton, Minot J. Savage, Presidents Eliot of Harvard, White of Cornell, and Harper of the University of Chicago, Professor J. Henry Thayer of Harvard, and Dr. Briggs, and any other prominent higher critic so called. They may associate with themselves, if they choose, all the contributors to the ninth edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica, who wrote its articles on Biblical subjects, together with a dozen mathematicians of the caliber of Professor Simon Newcomb. [Qx added paragraphing here]

The heavier the calibre of either scholar or mathematician, the more satisfactory to ft me. They will find that my facts are facts. And since they are facts, I am ready to take them to any three prominent lawyers, or, better still, to any judge of the superior or supreme court, and abide by his decision as to whether the conclusion is not necessary that Inspiration alone can account for the facts, if they are facts. All I should ask would be that the judge treat the case as he would any other case that comes before him."

Despite his public challenge in the New York Sun, not one of these prominent men attempted to refute Mr. Panin's undeniable facts or to deal with the unavoidable conclusion that the evidence produced by Panin proved that the Bible was truly inspired by a divine intelligence. The critics could not refute these facts. The only thing they could do was to ignore them. [Qx added paragraphing here]

Were Mr. Panin's research and calculations wrong? If so, where? If they were correct, and if they are, then the evidence exists for all to see that God did truly inspire the words of Scripture. One of Panin's last challenges consisted of this argument. He wrote to his ''detractors: "Lastly, my argument can also be refuted by showing that even though my facts be true, my arithmetic faultless, and my collocation of numerics honest, that men could have written thus without inspiration from above."

However, any honest attempt to create a paragraph on any subject that will contain this astonishing pattern of mathematical features within the surface text will utterly fail. I doubt that even a modern Cray super-computer could produce a passage containing the "wheels within wheels" pattern of sevens as revealed in Genesis 1:1 or Matthew 1:1-25.

To date, no one has succeeded in duplicating the phenomenon produced by the biblical writers in ancient times.

What was Panin’s own view of the Scriptures after a lifetime of diligent study? He wrote the following statement in one of his essays after warning of the limitations of wisdom found in secular philosophy. "Not so, however, with The Book. For it tells of One who spake as men never spake, who was the true bread of life, that which cometh down from the heavens, of which if a man eat he shall never hunger." Ivan Panin's conclusion of the matter was the following challlenge.

"My friend of the world, whoso you are: Either Jesus Christ is mistaken or you are. The answer that neither might be is only evading the issue, not settling it. But the ages have decided that Jesus Christ was not mistaken. It is for you to decide whether you shall continue to be."

QX: AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

PTL!


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To: Alamo-Girl

Thank you so much for your post AG. Excellent!


181 posted on 11/30/2004 8:26:27 PM PST by ladyinred (Congratulations President Bush! Four more years!)
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To: ladyinred
You are quite welcome, ladyinred! Hugs!!!
182 posted on 11/30/2004 8:36:38 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; Quix
I am late to your thread but there is nothing I could have added. Alamo-Girl and her wisdom said it all.

I have seen this before and lost it. There are a lot more number values than are in this article.

I have no problem believing this study, after all everything is numbers. If GOD can create a tree (we can't), I am sure HE could write in such a way. To each his own! Just another proof of the infallible Word of GOD.
183 posted on 11/30/2004 8:51:15 PM PST by DAVEY CROCKETT (Character exalts Liberty and Freedom, Righteous exalts a Nation.)
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To: Quix

That was exceedingly excellent!


184 posted on 11/30/2004 9:10:00 PM PST by Seven_0 (It is the character of theWord of God to leave something to be the reward for diligence-FW Grant)
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To: DAVEY CROCKETT
Thank you oh so very much for sharing your enthusiasm! Praise God!!!

And thank you for the encouragements, too!

185 posted on 11/30/2004 9:28:47 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: DAVEY CROCKETT

Much agree.

THX.


186 posted on 11/30/2004 10:34:32 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Seven_0

Very blessed you'd think so. Helps make the tedium of clearing up the OCR stuff more than worth it!

LUB


187 posted on 11/30/2004 10:57:19 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Quix

Not sure if I count as a "rabid naysayer", but when it comes down to it, the "mathematical signature of God" even if true is extremely unimportant.


188 posted on 12/01/2004 12:50:12 AM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: k2blader; All

In all the vast diversities of personalities . . .

for those thousands of individuals for whom such fascinating finger prints of God provide

attractive clues;

attractive invitations;

attractive clues

resulting by Holy Spirit's use and drawing to Jesus therewith

in an eternal relationship with The Father via Salvation in Christ . . .

for those individuals,

such will not have been the least bit

UN-important.

I'm shocked that any earnest believer could imagine, much less, think otherwise.


189 posted on 12/01/2004 4:40:38 AM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: k2blader
Not sure if I count as a "rabid naysayer", but when it comes down to it, the "mathematical signature of God" even if true is extremely unimportant.

I agree. People don't get suckered into the kingdom of God. Debate over mathematical theories is not the same as proclaiming the Bible (the Word of God) as the only infallible source of truth, and the clear way it points to Jesus Christ as the only hope of salvation.

"And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name." (John 20:30,31)

"For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple." (Rom. 16:18)

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." (1 Cor. 2:1,2)

You don't need Bible codes to figure out who Jesus Christ is, or to recognize the glory of God. Just open the Bible to any page and read the plain words written there. Only the blind cannot see and need to look elsewhere for "proof".

190 posted on 12/01/2004 6:46:55 AM PST by topcat54
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To: Quix

Speaking as someone who believes in the inerrant divine inspiration of the Bible, I think this analysis is a load of crap.


191 posted on 12/01/2004 7:09:27 AM PST by Sloth ("Rather is TV's real-life Ted Baxter, without Baxter's quiet dignity." -- Ann Coulter)
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To: Sloth; Quix
Speaking as someone who believes in the inerrant divine inspiration of the Bible, I think this analysis is a load of crap.

I think you are being generous. :-)

192 posted on 12/01/2004 7:22:25 AM PST by topcat54
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To: topcat54; Sloth

I don't find either of your two statements logical or consistent with the facts.


193 posted on 12/01/2004 8:28:02 AM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Quix; k2blader; All
In all the vast diversities of personalities . . . for those thousands of individuals for whom such fascinating finger prints of God provide attractive clues; attractive invitations; attractive clues resulting by Holy Spirit's use and drawing to Jesus therewith in an eternal relationship with The Father via Salvation in Christ . . . for those individuals, such will not have been the least bit UN-important. I'm shocked that any earnest believer could imagine, much less, think otherwise.

When I read comments like this I'm reminded on the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You might recall that story ends with these words:

Then [the rich man] said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' (Luke 16)

If people will not hear the word of God ("Moses and the prophets"), no miracle -- even as great as someone coming back from the dead -- will persuade them to turn to God.

It's sad that the church has turned to carnival tricks to try convince people to "come to Jesus". Part of the problem is the common belief that "saving souls" is a purely human endeavor. Folks think if they just present the best argument that folks will fall down before Christ. But that's not how it happens. People only come to Christ when they have been made alive by the Spirit of Christ. They must first be "born again" in order to repent of their sins and have faith in Him. Human arguiments do not cause that to happen.

194 posted on 12/01/2004 8:28:19 AM PST by topcat54
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To: Sloth

That's more than a bit like saying . . .

'I totally believe in and accept the wonderful the bond between oxygen and hydrogen but if I have to accept two molecules of oxygen to drink water, I won't drink a drop of it.'

Oh REALLY!

Cute.


195 posted on 12/01/2004 8:35:43 AM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Quix; Sloth
That's more than a bit like saying . . . 'I totally believe in and accept the wonderful the bond between oxygen and hydrogen but if I have to accept two molecules of oxygen to drink water, I won't drink a drop of it.' Oh REALLY! Cute.

No, actually it's more like 'I totally believe in and accept the wonderful the bond between oxygen and hydrogen but I don't need to accept your wacky theory about micro-minature, alien-technology, unseen Lego pieces in order to drink the water.'

196 posted on 12/01/2004 9:12:03 AM PST by topcat54
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To: topcat54

What an interesting distortion of the facts.


197 posted on 12/01/2004 9:13:14 AM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Quix
Call me crazy, but I think the secret to understanding and believing the Bible is to actually read it and think about what it says. Silly math games are superfluous.
198 posted on 12/01/2004 9:16:20 AM PST by Sloth ("Rather is TV's real-life Ted Baxter, without Baxter's quiet dignity." -- Ann Coulter)
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To: Quix
What an interesting distortion of the facts.

What facts?

199 posted on 12/01/2004 9:23:01 AM PST by topcat54
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To: Sloth
Call me crazy, but I think the secret to understanding and believing the Bible is to actually read it and think about what it says. Silly math games are superfluous.

But don't you understand? The Holy Spirit needs help from eminent "mathematicians" like Grant Jeffrey with too much time on their hands.

200 posted on 12/01/2004 9:26:07 AM PST by topcat54
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